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Melchior_1
Guest
Actually, what’s mostly ridiculous is the unwarranted and unfounded accusations of Liberalism and anti-traditionalism which have come up in the last few posts, but that’s neither here nor there.
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stevekochi
Guest
look how in taiwan the conditions are changing…here the tradition is been changed…that’s y taiwan now has more temples than churches
ucanews.com/2011/07/08/more-temples-than-churches-in-taiwan/
ucanews.com/2011/07/08/more-temples-than-churches-in-taiwan/
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vardaquinn
Guest
Ok, @ Denise and BigCat:
This is a traditionalist vs. charismatic forum thread. Both sides have every right to come on here and defend their own position. We don’t need to found our own forum thread, because at least I am a traditional Catholic. The very last thing this should be is a denominational sort of thing. It’s not an either or, it’s both and. I am traditionalist. I love the TLM, I’m in favor traditional NO liturgies, I go to a parish stock full of traditionalist Catholics, I highly disapprove of many of the so-called “charismatic” liturgies, because I think many of the things they do go against the correct way to celebrate the liturgy according to the rubrics. I’m a major advocate of traditional sacred music at Mass, centered on Gregorian chant. I’m orthodox, I adhere to all the teachings of the Church - including the bit about the charismatic dimension of the faith. I also am a major proponent, along with the Magisterium, of Vatican II and I think the solution to many of our problems in the Church would be a proper implementation of Vatican II. I have every right to post in this thread and any threads in the traditional catholicism category, because I am a traditionalist Catholic. I am not a liberal in any way shape or form. I do question, though, the traditionalism of many so called traditionalists. I didn’t come on here to pound you, I came on here to defend the truth and proper Catholic teaching and common sense. If you feel pounded by this, that is your affair, I meant no offense.
Furthermore, I am NOT saying that all Catholics MUST speak in tongues and prophesy according to Catholic doctrine, but I am saying that all Catholics MUST be open to these gifts, and all the charisms of the Holy Spirit according to whatever He wants to give you, and have a proper understanding of the charismatic dimension of the faith. And in the matter of common sense, I think it makes no logical sense not to want to speak in tongues simply because Pentecostals do it. The Apostles did it! Mary did it! Bl. John Paul II did it! So did many many saints!
Furthermore, I would like to remind you that we are at war, as the Church Militant. This is not just some vague analogy, but it is absolutely literal. This is a very real war. The Holy Spirit is using these charisms to bring people into a deeper understanding of the reality of Pentecost, and His presence in their lives. It is a powerful weapon, and I think it would be dangerous for the church and the world to oppose it simply based on silly prejudices against Protestant Pentecostals.
This is a traditionalist vs. charismatic forum thread. Both sides have every right to come on here and defend their own position. We don’t need to found our own forum thread, because at least I am a traditional Catholic. The very last thing this should be is a denominational sort of thing. It’s not an either or, it’s both and. I am traditionalist. I love the TLM, I’m in favor traditional NO liturgies, I go to a parish stock full of traditionalist Catholics, I highly disapprove of many of the so-called “charismatic” liturgies, because I think many of the things they do go against the correct way to celebrate the liturgy according to the rubrics. I’m a major advocate of traditional sacred music at Mass, centered on Gregorian chant. I’m orthodox, I adhere to all the teachings of the Church - including the bit about the charismatic dimension of the faith. I also am a major proponent, along with the Magisterium, of Vatican II and I think the solution to many of our problems in the Church would be a proper implementation of Vatican II. I have every right to post in this thread and any threads in the traditional catholicism category, because I am a traditionalist Catholic. I am not a liberal in any way shape or form. I do question, though, the traditionalism of many so called traditionalists. I didn’t come on here to pound you, I came on here to defend the truth and proper Catholic teaching and common sense. If you feel pounded by this, that is your affair, I meant no offense.
Furthermore, I am NOT saying that all Catholics MUST speak in tongues and prophesy according to Catholic doctrine, but I am saying that all Catholics MUST be open to these gifts, and all the charisms of the Holy Spirit according to whatever He wants to give you, and have a proper understanding of the charismatic dimension of the faith. And in the matter of common sense, I think it makes no logical sense not to want to speak in tongues simply because Pentecostals do it. The Apostles did it! Mary did it! Bl. John Paul II did it! So did many many saints!
Furthermore, I would like to remind you that we are at war, as the Church Militant. This is not just some vague analogy, but it is absolutely literal. This is a very real war. The Holy Spirit is using these charisms to bring people into a deeper understanding of the reality of Pentecost, and His presence in their lives. It is a powerful weapon, and I think it would be dangerous for the church and the world to oppose it simply based on silly prejudices against Protestant Pentecostals.
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Denise1957
Guest
Vardaquinn, I’m glad that you don’t believe that all Catholics must speak in tongues and prophesy. From your posts, I made the assumption that you believed this. But it is not Church teaching either that we must be open to speaking in tongues or prophesying. I’ve been listening to homilies of trad priests for nearly six years, and never have any of them ever said that we as Catholics have to be open to speaking in tongues or prophesying. No matter how many articles or speeches by popes, bishops, charsimatics that you link to, it is still not Church teaching that we as Catholics have to be open to these things. If the Holy Ghost chooses to give these things to someone, fine, that’s a part of Church teaching; but not the intentional seeking out of these things, or intentionally being ‘open’ to them.
I converted through the SSPX, and the traditional priest responsible for my formation never said that it is Church teaching that I must be open to speaking in tongues and prophesying. In fact, he never said anything at all about it. I no longer attend an SSPX chapel, but I don’t believe that the fraternity of priests who now offer the TLM where I live are ever going to incorporate CR practices into the TLM. It’s not a part of their particular charism to do so.
I converted through the SSPX, and the traditional priest responsible for my formation never said that it is Church teaching that I must be open to speaking in tongues and prophesying. In fact, he never said anything at all about it. I no longer attend an SSPX chapel, but I don’t believe that the fraternity of priests who now offer the TLM where I live are ever going to incorporate CR practices into the TLM. It’s not a part of their particular charism to do so.
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Bigcat71
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Actually the event at which this whole thing started was at an ecumenical meeting at Duquesne University in Pittsburgh in which Episcopalian Ministers prayed over the Catholics present, at the Catholics request and voila, the Holy Ghost came upon them. These two then proceeded to pray over other Catholics.
Quoting scripture is not a bad thing as long as it is not used as the end all for every argument. Protestants do this extremely well, having researched scripture and having found passages that support any and all positioins that they personally advocate. When Catholics start imitating protestants, such as endlessly quoting scripture and now the entire pentacostal experience, which is incredibly open to abuse, I feel uneasy. Sorry, but I do.
Would the average Catholic cleric or layperson have said that the pentacostal movement was in fact traditional Romand Catholic spirituality 60 years ago?
I doubt it.
As far as ecumenical meetings I too have no problem as long as the desired result is to bring people back to the true Church. Unfortunately, it appears that all too often these meetings turn into blatant attempts to distort the Catholic faith and induce good Catholics to abandon their faith and come on over to the correct side.
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vardaquinn
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@ Denise: Well, if I give you all these quotes, not to mention what The BIBLE says (as in, the inspired word of God Himself), and you just stubbornly refuse to believe it…We ALL have to be open to whatever the Holy Spirit wants to give us. We shouldn’t close ourselves off to anything, especially something like that. What on earth could you possibly gain from such an attitude? This is something so crucial to sanctity (not speaking in tongues and prophesying, but being open to whatever the Holy Spirit wants to work with us, including those things). There’s been a vast ignorance and almost complete ignoring of the charisms of the Holy Spirit, and as Bl. Pope John Paul II noted numerous times, the Second Vatican Council recalled the teaching on charisms and put a new emphasis on it, calling for a “new Pentecost”. Just because priests haven’t mentioned it doesn’t mean it’s important. That argument could be used to justify something like “my priest has never told me contraception is wrong, so therefore it can’t possibly be church teaching”. In the word of Bl John Paul II: open yourselves docilely to the gifts of the Holy Spirit. I don’t expect everybody to look like the charismatics, especially with their way of doing things, but I do hope that all priests will look to nurture, foster, and discern charisms in their communities, as they are supposed to do according to Church teaching.
@ BigCat: I believe there were some Protestants present, but I was under the impression it was essentially a Catholic retreat. Listen to this talk, ctkcc.libsyn.com/holy_spirit_dave_mangan given by David Mangan, his personal account of the retreat.
I understand your uneasiness, I feel uneasy myself. But I think we have much to learn from Protestants (obviously not doctrine). We should all know Scripture well enough to quote it like Protestants. In fact, we should know it far better. The Bible is supposed to be a central part of our lives.
@ BigCat: I believe there were some Protestants present, but I was under the impression it was essentially a Catholic retreat. Listen to this talk, ctkcc.libsyn.com/holy_spirit_dave_mangan given by David Mangan, his personal account of the retreat.
I understand your uneasiness, I feel uneasy myself. But I think we have much to learn from Protestants (obviously not doctrine). We should all know Scripture well enough to quote it like Protestants. In fact, we should know it far better. The Bible is supposed to be a central part of our lives.
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Denise1957
Guest
Vardaquinn, you mention that there has been a vast ignorance and ignoring the charisms of the Holy Spirit. I disagree. Just because we don’t want to - or need to - ask to speak in tongues and prophesy does it means that we are ignoring the charism of the Holy Spirit. If we are in a state of grace, we can cooperate with the ordinary graces which the Holy Ghost gives us, due to our baptism. If we are not in a state of grace, our reception of those graces is very much diminished. This is what the Church teaches. Church teachings are geared for the salvation of souls.
The extraordinary gifts, on the other hand, such as tongues or prophesy, are not geared toward salvation, but rather the building up of the Church. The Church primarily exists for the salvation of souls. It does not exist to primarily build itself up. Do you see the difference?
Priests are called upon to nurture that which is geared toward the salvation of their flock. Speaking in tongues and prophesy are not geared toward this purpose.
We can go round and round and keep saying the same things over and over, vardaquinn. Not sure what purppose it will serve, though, but okay. Do mind if I ask…how long have you been a Catholic?
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vardaquinn
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@ Denise:
Read Corinthians 12, and the list of charisms St. Paul puts there. Now, could you give a detailed explanation of all of those charisms (as supernatural graces given in some measure to each individual)? Or maybe even just a handful, off the top of your head from your own religious education? If not, then you illustrate my point.
I’m not necessarily saying there’s a huge ignorance of the Holy Spirit, but specifically His role in regards to charisms and action in the Body of Christ. There is. I am ignorant. I only even really heard about these charisms a year ago, learning about them from a friend in the Charismatic Renewal. Before then, the role of the Holy Spirit was a bit vague (though I have had an excellent and orthodox theological upbringing). I understood His role in bringing us in bringing us into the life of God through baptism and confirmation, by dwelling in us, making us temples of the Holy Spirit. I was far more ignorant of what precisely He does to the exterior life of the Christian.
The charisms (tongues and prophecy included) are geared towards the salvation of souls, but differently than like the sacraments, because they are geared really towards evangelization. They are absolutely integral, I believe, in the work of the new evangelization called for by Bl. John Paul. Catholics need to be evangelized to! Me too! I need to evangelize myself everyday! The Church exists to draw souls to Christ, and that is also the function of these charisms, and indeed all gifts of the Holy Spirit. The Gospel yesterday has Our Lord telling the disciples to go out and heal the sick, raise the dead, and cast out demons and preach the Gospel.
The charisms are meant for SERVICE. We are called as Christians to be servants of God, to serve one another.
You must have a very minimalistic understanding of the salvation of souls, almost a Protestant “faith without works” understanding, if you think that this is not geared towards the salvation of souls. Priests must nurture the charismatic life of their flocks, which likely includes tongues and prophecy. Especially prophecy. People on both sides of the “divide” get way too caught up over tongues. Tongues is great, it should be encouraged. But it’s not nearly as important as the other charisms, especially prophecy as Paul says, because the others are fare more oriented towards helping others. The priests are there to mobilize the army of God, and equip them and lead them in the battle for souls. They are not there to simply just say Mass and hear confessions - though the administration of the sacraments is the center of their priestly ministry.
The Church is the Mystical Body of Christ. It’s not for nothing that you see one of Paul’s most quoted bits about the Body of Christ right in the midst of His talk on charisms. We are each given different charisms for our work in the Body of Christ, and this essential to the understanding of what it means to be a Church.
There is far too much of an influence of Protestant individualistic theology in the Church today. The Church is more than a building or institution.
Read Corinthians 12, and the list of charisms St. Paul puts there. Now, could you give a detailed explanation of all of those charisms (as supernatural graces given in some measure to each individual)? Or maybe even just a handful, off the top of your head from your own religious education? If not, then you illustrate my point.
I’m not necessarily saying there’s a huge ignorance of the Holy Spirit, but specifically His role in regards to charisms and action in the Body of Christ. There is. I am ignorant. I only even really heard about these charisms a year ago, learning about them from a friend in the Charismatic Renewal. Before then, the role of the Holy Spirit was a bit vague (though I have had an excellent and orthodox theological upbringing). I understood His role in bringing us in bringing us into the life of God through baptism and confirmation, by dwelling in us, making us temples of the Holy Spirit. I was far more ignorant of what precisely He does to the exterior life of the Christian.
The charisms (tongues and prophecy included) are geared towards the salvation of souls, but differently than like the sacraments, because they are geared really towards evangelization. They are absolutely integral, I believe, in the work of the new evangelization called for by Bl. John Paul. Catholics need to be evangelized to! Me too! I need to evangelize myself everyday! The Church exists to draw souls to Christ, and that is also the function of these charisms, and indeed all gifts of the Holy Spirit. The Gospel yesterday has Our Lord telling the disciples to go out and heal the sick, raise the dead, and cast out demons and preach the Gospel.
The charisms are meant for SERVICE. We are called as Christians to be servants of God, to serve one another.
You must have a very minimalistic understanding of the salvation of souls, almost a Protestant “faith without works” understanding, if you think that this is not geared towards the salvation of souls. Priests must nurture the charismatic life of their flocks, which likely includes tongues and prophecy. Especially prophecy. People on both sides of the “divide” get way too caught up over tongues. Tongues is great, it should be encouraged. But it’s not nearly as important as the other charisms, especially prophecy as Paul says, because the others are fare more oriented towards helping others. The priests are there to mobilize the army of God, and equip them and lead them in the battle for souls. They are not there to simply just say Mass and hear confessions - though the administration of the sacraments is the center of their priestly ministry.
The Church is the Mystical Body of Christ. It’s not for nothing that you see one of Paul’s most quoted bits about the Body of Christ right in the midst of His talk on charisms. We are each given different charisms for our work in the Body of Christ, and this essential to the understanding of what it means to be a Church.
There is far too much of an influence of Protestant individualistic theology in the Church today. The Church is more than a building or institution.
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vardaquinn
Guest
I have been a Catholic nearly 17 years. I turn 17 years old in a short time. I am currently 16. I’ve read a lot of books…
Really, I don’t see why there should be any resistance to tongues or prophecy or any of the charisms listed in Scripture. I need all the help I can get to be a saint, and if people are anything like me, so do they. The more gifts and graces from God, the better. Whatever the Holy Spirit wants to give me, or give others through me. We’re supposed to give ourselves completely to Him, and let Him work through us. Our mission is two-fold, remember. To sanctify ourselves, and help to sanctify others. Otherwise the Apostles would all have just been beamed up to heaven at Pentecost, and there wouldn’t be a Church.We are in desperate need of renewal today, and anything that is promoting authentic renewal of the Church, and especially something as huge as charismatic renewal, is definitely a force of good in the Church despite its failings.
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vardaquinn
Guest
@ BigCat: Today I was reading a book called the Spirit and the Church by Ralph Martin, which is a record of the early years of the Charismatic Renewal in the Church. It had several testimonies from people who had attended the retreat at Dusquene Univeristy in 1967. I am under the impression that several of the Catholics leading the retreat had experienced a “baptism in the Holy Spirit”. Several of the accounts made no indication of being prayed over by the Episcopalian who had come to give a talk I believe.
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Denise1957
Guest
I had thought that you were really young, but didn’t want to ask you outright how old you are. I would recommend that you look for direction from other Catholic members of your family…parents or grandparents. Older folks generally have much wisdom from having been through the trials of life. A bit of motherly advice from me: in your enthusiasum over the extraordinary gifts of the Holy Ghost, please take care that you don’t use these gifts to replace confession. Do your very best to stay in a state of grace by a regular examination of conscience. Sometimes charismatics (not all, I’m sure) think that the extraordinary gifts can replace the ordinary gifts which sanctify - speaking in tongues and prophesying do not sanctify, no matter how much your friends may insist that they do. I would also suggest that you read the catechism of the Church as well.I have been a Catholic nearly 17 years. I turn 17 years old in a short time. I am currently 16. I’ve read a lot of books…
Really, I don’t see why there should be any resistance to tongues or prophecy or any of the charisms listed in Scripture. I need all the help I can get to be a saint, and if people are anything like me, so do they. The more gifts and graces from God, the better. Whatever the Holy Spirit wants to give me, or give others through me. We’re supposed to give ourselves completely to Him, and let Him work through us. Our mission is two-fold, remember. To sanctify ourselves, and help to sanctify others. Otherwise the Apostles would all have just been beamed up to heaven at Pentecost, and there wouldn’t be a Church.We are in desperate need of renewal today, and anything that is promoting authentic renewal of the Church, and especially something as huge as charismatic renewal, is definitely a force of good in the Church despite its failings.
God bless.
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vardaquinn
Guest
I go to confession almost weekly, and I do an examination of conscience every night (or try to) as part of compline for the Divine Office. And I attend daily Mass. So… I believe I’m doing my best (at least sacramentally) to stay in a state of grace.
As for reading the CCC, may I suggest you do the same as well?
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Indyann
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Thank you, Vardaquinn for your thoughtful posts. You are wise beyond your years. I have learned much from your thoughtful and charitable posts.
May I ask who fostered your love and zeal for our wonderful Church? Your parents, your school, a priest, or someone else? It is quite evident that the Holy Spirit is guiding your way.
ps. Can I be your virtual Grandma?
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vardaquinn
Guest
Thank you, I appreciate that.Thank you, Vardaquinn for your thoughtful posts. You are wise beyond your years. I have learned much from your thoughtful and charitable posts.
May I ask who fostered your love and zeal for our wonderful Church? Your parents, your school, a priest, or someone else? It is quite evident that the Holy Spirit is guiding your way.
ps. Can I be your virtual Grandma?
A lot of people fostered whatever zeal I have for the Church, including all those you’ve mentioned. Several of my friends, one in particular. Really, I mean Our Lord Himself and Our Blessed Mother did…
Go ahead. You’re my first virtual grandmother. Now look what you’ve got yourself into!
Pray for me.
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Indyann
Guest
I am honored to be your virtual Grandma. I will pray for you, as I do for all my IRL grandchildren. Who is your patron Saint? I always ask for intercession for my children and grandchildren’s patron Saints and of course to St. Anne, Jesus’s grandma.Thank you, I appreciate that.
A lot of people fostered whatever zeal I have for the Church, including all those you’ve mentioned. Several of my friends, one in particular. Really, I mean Our Lord Himself and Our Blessed Mother did…
Go ahead. You’re my first virtual grandmother. Now look what you’ve got yourself into!
I ask that you remember me in your prayers also. I need all that I can get, as none of my family are practicing Catholics, and I fear that there will be no one to pray for me after I leave this earth. (Not planning on that anytime soon
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InquisitorMax
Guest
And that’s the nub of the matter. We disagree as to how those gifts manifest and to how ‘open’ we must be to them, or what that even means.
I think I’d like to be like a great Saint, like St. Padre Pio. He had gifts, all right. People spoke to him in their mother tongue, which he couldn’t possibly know, and he understood them. They had a conversation. This not like what I understand is exhibited at Charismatic meetings i.e. the famous babbling.
‘Being slain in the Spirit’ or ‘Swooning’; that’s like what teens do a rock concerts. I’m sure its cathartic. Feels good, I bet. What on earth does it have to do with advancing in holiness? Nothing, I propose.
The sense I got growing up was the Charismaticism was supposed to provide what the Church lacked. I don’t think it’s worked. The Catholic Church needs its Mount Athos, I think, to counter amateur efforts at mysticism.
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vardaquinn
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sigh First of all, we’re ALL supposed to be mystics (that doesn’t mean we all have to have strange mystical phenomena) but we’re ALL supposed to have an even deeper relationship and love for God than Padre Pio had, and an even greater surrender to God’s will. Why do you persist in calling it babbling? It’s a charism of the Holy Spirit! Read about it in the Bible! It’s not babble, it’s praise. Of course it sounds like babble to you. Just as any language you don’t know sounds like babble. Don’t be absurd.
You have your own charisms of the Holy Spirit through baptism and confirmation. Use them. That is clearly God’s will. I don’t see what you could possibly stand to benefit from your closed-off, no emotions, no overt enthusiasm, anti-charismatic approach - and you’re certainly not theologically correct!
We have our Mount Athos’. We have thousands of convents and monasteries throughout the world with real mature saintly holy glow-in-the-dark monks and nuns. I think you yourself need to come to a better understanding of what it means to be part of the Catholic Church, and your role as a lay person - because it sure isn’t just to warm the pews and pay the bills. I’d suggest you start with the documents of Vatican II.
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vardaquinn
Guest
My patron saints are St. James (the “greater”), St. Joseph, and St. Matthias. Prepare to be prayed for.I am honored to be your virtual Grandma. I will pray for you, as I do for all my IRL grandchildren. Who is your patron Saint? I always ask for intercession for my children and grandchildren’s patron Saints and of course to St. Anne, Jesus’s grandma.
I ask that you remember me in your prayers also. I need all that I can get, as none of my family are practicing Catholics, and I fear that there will be no one to pray for me after I leave this earth. (Not planning on that anytime soon
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SunshineZA
Guest
Thank you Denise,May we all mature to the point where we no longer need to be fed ‘milk’ but where we mature to the stage where we can move on to the ‘hard bones and meat’ of our faith.
*The extraordinary gifts, on the other hand, such as tongues or prophesy, are not geared toward salvation, but rather the building up of the Church.
The Church however, needs building up.
Amen.
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InquisitorMax
Guest
I’m afraid it’s you who is being absurd here. The Apostles and St. Padre Pio could be understood by those who heard them. Therefore, it’s wasn’t gibberish.
An idea I’ve got from reading books on occultism and exorcism is this: That fakirs, magicians and demons will do the following:
- Tell the future, but superficial events only;
- Make things appear and disappear or transmute, but again, trivial effects;
- Tell you things only you and no one else could know, but nothing that will help you spiritually e.g. “Your Aunty Jessie died recently”.
My point is: Mystical phenomena can be easily produced, if human beings seek them. I don’t know how, or if, Charismaticism is regulated. I could set up a Charismatic group tomorrow and, based on what I know, lead it down a lively route. Just like a charismatic preacher.
The impression I’m getting is that it’s emotion-based and too influenced by Pentecostalism. It got going in Catholicism after the iconoclasm of the 60’s. Modern Catholics don’t know their faith. They haven’t a clue about mysticism. I would say Catholicism is very literary. What, for example, would the average priest be able to suggest to someone who says “Father, I was buffeted by a demon last night, what should I do?”
Into this void, modern Catholics are a lot like Protestants; they seek … something … and can be fed anything.
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