"Traditionalists" and "KJV-Onlys"?

[Mysty101]

**This coming from someone who wants everyone to receive Communion standing up, even though the GIRM **permits communicants to receive kneeling.

.

I would expect everyone to follow the GIRM, and their Bishop.

 

[Mysty101]

Swiss Guard:

It seems once again you are being judgmental about those who want the Tridentine Mass. You are the one who wants a parish to tailor itself to your wishes.

Not to my wishes. I would expect a Parish to accommodate the worship preferences of the majority of the parishioners, accommodating a significant minority, if possible. How does this allow for one person to kneel in the middle of a standing procession, or to attend a Tridenttine Mass?

**

It’s precisely because of modernists who want to rid the Church of any semblance of tradition that John Paul II worded Ecclesia Dei

in this manner **

It is precisely because of rude opinionated persons like you that many Parishes will not even try to accommodate a minority with an exception to the norm.

 

[Fogny]

netmil(name removed by moderator):

I’m getting out the popcorn and putting my feet up to watch this thread!

Popcorn and plenty of melted butter, I finally figured out if people aren’t taking jabs this forum get’s boring.

 

[netmilsmom]

Fogny:

Popcorn and plenty of melted butter, I finally figured out if people aren’t taking jabs this forum get’s boring.

 

[Kielbasi]

There is a similarity between the KJV onlys and Latin philes, but it ain’t what you think.

Both groups believe in worshiping in a sacred language instead of the vernacular, the KJV’s using Elizabethan English, the Catholic trads of course using Latin.

 

[TLM_Altar_Boy]

Pariah Pirana:

I have come to see similarites between those Catholics who describe themselfes as “traditionalists” and those Protestants who describe themselves as “KJV-onlys.”

More specifically I see similarities in the following areas:

1.) Dumbing-down of the faith. Both groups seem to want to base their entire faiths either on a specific type of Mass, or a specific version of the Bible. There is simply more to it.

2.) Lack of perspective. Members from both camps seem to be fairly ignorant about the history and totality of their faiths.

3.) Poor thought processing. I’m not sure that I have *ever *meet someone that is both smart, educated and well catechized from either camp. In a word, their use of logic is typically non-existant.

4.) The need to be different. A buker-mentality seems to actually appeal to thse individuals.

5.) Intolerance. Every time I hear the terms “liberal”, “modernist”, “apostate”, “heretic”, etc. etc. etc. thrown around, I think of both of these extrememist groups. I also marvel at how they typically misuse these very words…

I sincerely hope that by “traditionalists” you don’t mean everyone who loves the Traditional Mass and is orthodox, but instead mean “rad-trads” of the SSPX and SSPV variety.

I love the Latin Mass; I’m a weak human, and the Traditional Mass allows me to better focus on Christ. I think the Novus Ordo/Normative Mass is equally valid and efficacious. I believe that Protestants are heretics, though their culpability is diminished by being born into heresy. I think ecumenism is great, as long as it is a means of encouraging others to join Christ’s Church and not an end unto itself.

Do I fit your definition of the ignorant “traditionalist?” Just curious.

 

[usqueadmortem]

Fogny:

Popcorn and plenty of melted butter, I finally figured out if people aren’t taking jabs this forum get’s boring.

I hope I haven’t lacked charity. I have tried to be very careful. TRAD’s (and those who don’t mind saying Traditional Catholic too). Please slap me around if you see anything out of line.

May Christ be praised and served in all things.
God Bless,
Usque.

 

[amasimp]

Pariah Pirana:

.

3.) Poor thought processing. I’m not sure that I have *ever *meet someone that is both smart, educated and well catechized from either camp. In a word, their use of logic is typically non-existant.

…

Hmm…let’s see. I am a traditionalist. I have an IQ of over 150. I have a Bachelor’s Degree in Math and Chemistry and a Master’s Degree in Chemistry from Yale. I am also very well catechized from the Catechism of the Council of Trent, the Baltimore Catechism, the Catechism of Pope St. Pius X, and the current Catechism of the Catholic Church.

Yours is a sweeping generalization and is, in itself, an example of poor thought processing.

Give me a break…

 

[Mysty101]

[/quote]

Don’t you ever realize what people are saying to you???

 

[tcraig]

To begin with, I’m not really sure why you have such a problem with some Catholics describing themselves as “traditionalist” - whether with a “T” or a ‘t’. It’s just a term that is used to describe those who love the TLM and the past traditions of the Church. Certainly the term “charismatic” has been accepted, why not “traditionalist”? If you heard two people describe themselves as a charismatic Catholic and a traditionalist Catholic, you’d certainly get two different views of the way they worship, wouldn’t you? So these terms are useful, even though both persons are “Catholic” in the strictest sense.

Anyway, to address each of your particular points:

1.) Dumbing-down of the faith. Both groups seem to want to base their entire faiths either on a specific type of Mass, or a specific version of the Bible. There is simply more to it.

Of course there’s “more to it”, and I’ve never met a traditionalist who bases his/her entire faith on the particular style of the mass at all. I’m sure some exist, but I’ve never met one personally. Most attend the TLM because they (1) appreciate it’s beauty, and (2) believe it better expresses the theology of the Catholic Church. Also, many of my fellow parishioners attended the TLM for the first time because (1) they were tired of the abuses they saw in the NO, or (2) they felt that something was “missing” in their worship. No one has defined their faith (i.e. I’m only Catholic if I attend the TLM) based on the mass alone.

2.) Lack of perspective. Members from both camps seem to be fairly ignorant about the history and totality of their faiths.

Well, I can say from personal experience that this is *not *the case in my parish. For one thing, we have an exceptionally large number of protestant converts (of which I am one), who are very informed about the Catholic faith. In addition, the “cradle Catholics” and “reverts” that attend the TLM are, on the whole, extemely knowledgeable about and faithful to the Church. In fact, I’d say it is safe to say that the Catholics I know in my TLM parish are some of the best informed, best catechized Catholics I’ve ever met.

3.) Poor thought processing. I’m not sure that I have ever meet someone that is both smart, educated and well catechized from either camp. In a word, their use of logic is typically non-existant.

While it’s been true (in my experience) that the “KJV Bible only” protestants have tended to be more uneducated, I can assure you that this is not the case with Catholics who prefer to attend the TLM. On the whole, I have found them to be more educated and intelligent than the Catholic population in general. That’s not to say that everyone is an Ivy League scholar. But in my parish, at least, most people must make a concerted effort (mainly in time via driving) to attend … and the TLM so far seems to be attracting a more educated populace. As one example, the gentleman who teaches an adult class on the Early Church Fathers attended both Harvard and Oxford College, and is fluent in both Latin and Greek.

4.) The need to be different. A buker-mentality seems to actually appeal to thse individuals.

This statement is just silly. Many Catholics in my parish have said that attending the TLM is the first time that they’ve felt “normal”. They had a “bunker-like” mentality in their former NO parishes. Families of 6+ children are the norm in my TLM church, and these same families were made to feel like freaks in their former NO churches because of their large family size. In addition, many Catholics who attend the TLM have experienced great relief to find other Catholics who don’t “pick and choose” which aspects of the faith they want to follow. No one here wants to feel different, they just don’t want to feel that actually following their faith makes them weird.

5.) Intolerance. Every time I hear the terms “liberal”, “modernist”, “apostate”, “heretic”, etc. etc. etc. thrown around, I think of both of these extrememist groups. I also marvel at how they typically misuse these very words …

Well, I’ve heard the word “liberal” thrown around a bit, but that’s as much a political expression as it is a Catholic term. And most “liberal” (politcally speaking) Catholics that I have met also tend to be the least orthodox when it comes to the Catholic faith.

 

[netmilsmom]

Mysty101:

Don’t you ever realize what people are saying to you???

Excuse me?

 

[usqueadmortem]

tccraig,

Not to tarnish your humility, but that was a stellar post. :clapping:

Usque.

 

[pnewton]

Oh my gosh! I do not know what to do. Here I find myself wanting to settle back and share a bucket of popscorn with netmil(name removed by moderator) and fogny.

I am just an average Joe Catholic (orthodox) and have different tastes than most traditionalists, but even I can see the idiocy in starting a posts out with the most bigoted, insulting generalizations on can muster. (and that’s just against the KJV-only camp).

 

[usqueadmortem]

Dear Philip,

I thought we had made a lot of progress before this thread was started. Both sides were being respectful and open. I was impressed.

This was certainly a bombshell. Perhaps we should just move on before a big argument starts. Maybe the entertainment value isn’t worth it.

Usque.

 

[Pariah_Pirana]

**This coming from someone who wants everyone to receive Communion standing up, even though the GIRM **permits communicants to receive kneeling…

Let’s see what the GIRM actually says:

"GIRM #160. The priest then takes the paten or ciborium and goes to the communicants, who, as a rule, approach in a procession.

The faithful are not permitted to take the consecrated bread or the sacred chalice by themselves and, still less, to hand them from one to another. The norm for reception of Holy Communion in the dioceses of the United States is standing. Communicants should not be denied Holy Communion because they kneel. Rather, such instances should be addressed pastorally, by providing the faithful with proper catechesis on the reasons for this norm."

So while the faithful should not be denied communion because they lack proper catechesis and are therefore not standing per the norm, they should be given communion and proper catechesis.

Your technique of taking one without the other is cafeteria Catholicism at its worst…

 

[Pariah_Pirana]

TLM Altar Boy:

I sincerely hope that by “traditionalists” you don’t mean everyone who loves the Traditional Mass and is orthodox, but instead mean “rad-trads” of the SSPX and SSPV variety.

I love the Latin Mass; I’m a weak human, and the Traditional Mass allows me to better focus on Christ. I think the Novus Ordo/Normative Mass is equally valid and efficacious. I believe that Protestants are heretics, though their culpability is diminished by being born into heresy. I think ecumenism is great, as long as it is a means of encouraging others to join Christ’s Church and not an end unto itself.

Do I fit your definition of the ignorant “traditionalist?” Just curious.

I see no corallary whatsoever between “traditonalism” and orthodox Catholicism…

 

[Mysty101]

usqueadmortem:

I thought we had made a lot of progress before this thread was started. Both sides were being respectful and open. I was impressed.

I guess you missed a few threads–I am a daily communicant, an EMHC both at Mass and in the hospital, a Reader, a Catechist and a choir member, yet my belief in the Real Presence was questioned because I defended the standing norm, and my fidelity to the Pope was questioned because I defended the orans position, (which was ridiculed by one of you fellow entertainees) and asked for documentation to support the claim that hand-holding during the Lord’s Prayer is a serious abuse, but it’s OK to attend a non-Catholic service regularly—it’s more pious than some Masses.

Perhaps we should just move on before a big argument starts. Maybe the entertainment value isn’t worth it.

You consider ridicule of legitimate worship and the USCCB entertainment? Although the original post may be somewhat exaggerated, and over-generalized, there are some good points which could be very beneficial, if taken seriously.

Just keep laughing—WWJD?

 

[Mysty101]

amasimp:

Hmm…let’s see. I am a traditionalist. I have an IQ of over 150. I have a Bachelor’s Degree in Math and Chemistry and a Master’s Degree in Chemistry from Yale. I am also very well catechized from the Catechism of the Council of Trent, the Baltimore Catechism, the Catechism of Pope St. Pius X, and the current Catechism of the Catholic Church.

Yours is a sweeping generalization and is, in itself, an example of poor thought processing.

Give me a break…

Have you read any of the threads which led to this?

3.) Poor thought processing. I’m not sure that I have *ever *meet someone that is both smart, educated and well catechized from either camp. In a word, their use of logic is typically non-existant

.

If you read through some of the threads, perhaps you may understand—PP did say " I’m not sure that I have *ever *met " and in these threads, that may be true.

 

[netmilsmom]

pnewton:

Oh my gosh! I do not know what to do. Here I find myself wanting to settle back and share a bucket of popscorn with netmil(name removed by moderator) and fogny.

I am just an average Joe Catholic (orthodox) and have different tastes than most traditionalists, but even I can see the idiocy in starting a posts out with the most bigoted, insulting generalizations on can muster. (and that’s just against the KJV-only camp).

(passing popcorn with extra butter from fogny)
Want a hoot?
See post 29.

 

[Mysty101]

(passing popcorn with extra butter from fogny)
Want a hoot?
See post 29.

It is quite obvious that your idea of a “hoot”, is a very serious matter indeed.

I repeat

You consider ridicule of legitimate worship and the USCCB entertainment? Although the original post may be somewhat exaggerated, and over-generalized, there are some good points which could be very beneficial, if taken seriously.

Just keep laughing—WWJD?

I wonder how EWTN would feel about what you consider entertainment.

(or has your 7 year old stolen your identity again?)