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blackbelt
Guest
i would have to disagree with you based on scripture but this is a whole diffrent thread
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Eden
Guest
Why do you make claims like this without any statistical backup?
20% of Catholic and Protestant marriages
40% of Jewish marriages
Source: www.divorcepeers.com/stats32.htm
Denomination (in order of decreasing divorce rate)****% who have been divorced
Non-denominational (small conservative groups;independents) 34%
Baptists 29%
Mainline Protestants 25%
Mormons 24%
Catholics21%
Lutherans 21%
Source: www.religioustolerance.org/chr_dira.htm and here: www.fbcsurgoinsville.lifewaylink.com/templates/aso01lv/details.asp?id=23631&PID=98205
**Baptists have the highest divorce rate of any **
Christian denomination, and are more likely to get a divorce than atheists and agnostics, according to a national survey.
Of major Christian denominations, Catholics and Lutherans** have** the lowest divorce rate at 21 percent, according to Barna. People who attend mainstream Protestant churches have an overall divorce rate of 25 percent.
Source: www.divorcereform.org/mel/rbaptisthigh.html
I have very little tolerance for people who make up fake statistics to support their views.
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blackbelt
Guest
Ok so lets agree with you that RC has the least amount of divorce rate, What does that make the Vatacan Church of the year!
What about all historic attrocities the Vatacan and popes have commited in the name of God!
You dont seem to get the picture Edan we’re all christians we all belive in God and Christ but views like yours that RC is the ONLY church is a Lie and it does no good but devide the body of Christ.
Maby you sohold think of that and lets tear down barriers instead of keeping them up.
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Eden
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Why are you upset with me for providing statistics that show Kirane’s claims about the Church are “poppycock”?
Start a new thread please, you are getting way off track here.
There was only one Church founded by Christ. The rest is a lie. Protestantism is a lie. Are Protestants Christians? If they are baptised, they are but they do not have the fullness of faith that Christ left us in his Church. The Catholic Church was founded in Jerusalem in 33 A.D. When was your church founded?
www.prayertools.com/Founders.htm
I’m not trying to put barriers between faiths. I’m trying to show you Truth. I would not be doing you any favors by telling you that your church is just as valid as the one He founded.
Please read “Pillar of Fire, Pillar of Truth”:
www.catholic.com/library/Pillar.asp
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blackbelt
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sandusky
Guest
I don’t know how much Greek you have studied, Eden, but I have studied it enough to know that it is you who are mistaken. All of our pastoral staff is well-versed in the Greek language, some even teach it at our seminary where we have on staff one of the foremost N.T. Greek scholars in the world.
The information you are receiving is biased toward your theology, and it is incorrect.
You twisting what I have said, Eden.
Again you twist. IMHO, that chip on your shoulders is covering the eyes of your heart as well.
What a pity.
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Batjacboy
Guest
Sandusky, if you think she’s misrepresented what you said, please demonstrate it. Don’t just make the comment and then run away.
Please keep the editorial comments to a minimum. The issue here is truth, not weak analogies to “chips on shoulders”, “eyes of the heart”, etc.
If you can’t stand behind what you said and support it with facts, you might want to leave the debate to someone who can.
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Kirane
Guest
Since you are asking me for a statistical backup here it is:
Divorces in the USA
1930: 195, 961
1979: 1,179,000
1998: 1,135,000
Annulments given out by the Catholic Church:
1930: 9
1989: 61, 416.
The divorces have increased by a factor of about 6 (5.9)
The annulments in the RCC have increased over the same period by a factor of 6824, or more than one thousand times as much as the divorces in the USA at large.
My main point in this has been that there is not a dime’s worth of difference between a marriage broken by a divorce or a marriage broken by an annulment. Ask any eight year old child of divorced or annulled parents and see if he can feel any difference. I think not.
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YahShuaMessiah
Guest
She will ask you for your source, so please have it ready.
Nice stats, bravo.
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happygal
Guest
In all Christianity believes. Divorce is not allow,
1 corinthians 7: 27 → Do you have a wife? don’t seek a divorce, are you divorced from your wife? don’t look for another one, but if you do you have not sinned, but these people will have trouble and i would like to spare them from that.
Annulment and divorce make no different to me, is still a failure in their first marriage.
Well sadly to say, i have came across believer (catholic/protestant) friends who filed for divorce (in my country, one need to get a lawyer to prepare divorce paper for both party to sign to consider both are legally separated) is not from the church, even if your marriage is confirm by the witness of the priest and if you did not registered for your marriage in my country you are consider not a husband and wife. So i wonder how does religion really confirm your status as husband and wife simply through your church?
1 corinthians 7: 27 → Do you have a wife? don’t seek a divorce, are you divorced from your wife? don’t look for another one, but if you do you have not sinned, but these people will have trouble and i would like to spare them from that.
Annulment and divorce make no different to me, is still a failure in their first marriage.
Well sadly to say, i have came across believer (catholic/protestant) friends who filed for divorce (in my country, one need to get a lawyer to prepare divorce paper for both party to sign to consider both are legally separated) is not from the church, even if your marriage is confirm by the witness of the priest and if you did not registered for your marriage in my country you are consider not a husband and wife. So i wonder how does religion really confirm your status as husband and wife simply through your church?
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blackbelt
Guest
yes thats very true we need FACTS so please,
I’m still waiting for bibical proof for annulment, if the word is not in scripture I would be happy with a verse on annulment.
I’m still waiting for bibical proof for annulment, if the word is not in scripture I would be happy with a verse on annulment.
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john_ennis
Guest
The point she asked you to back up with statistics is this:
"
Your statistics show that annulments grew by a large percent (because practically none were granted in 1930), while remaining a fraction of the number of divorces.
This logically has nothing to do with your statement that the breakup of the family has hit the Catholic Church hardest.
Peace.
John
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john_ennis
Guest
This fact, I will not disagree with. Anyone, Catholic or not, should regret the shattering of a child’s family, whether the marriage was legitimate from the start or not.
Peace.
John
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Eden
Guest
I am sure that staff well-studied in Greek would realize that the word for adultery is “moicheia”. I have shown you articles in which this is stated and yet you continue to ignore the distinction between “porneia” and “moicheia”. The fact that your Greek scholars continue to understand “porneia” (fornication) as including adultery is their mistake. Can you please tell me the difference between “porneia” and “moicheia” in your theology?
Here is what you said
How did you intend for divorce and remarriage to relate to purity in this quote?
I just find the claim by “biblically-based” faiths that the Church has “traditions of men” (which is false) very amusing in light of the fact that the other Christian faiths have so many.
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happygal
Guest
john ennis:
Marriage is holy to all believers. Marriage is given by God, whatever divorce or annulment is consider rejecting gift given my God!!!
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Eden
Guest
Are your statistics in the first category Catholic divorces or an illustration of how divorce rates have risen in the United States across the board over the last half-century? It appears that you have used general statistics on divorce and you have provided no source (link) for your information.
O.K. I’m going to root around in my mind for my old Social Science Methodology knowledge here and state that statistics can have outside influences (a third factor) that is not being taken into consideration in the equation. Society has changed drastically since 1930. Marriage is not taken as seriously in our culture as it once was. There is a lot more intermarriage in which someone who is “Catholic” is lukewarm in their faith and does not understand the sacrament they are receiving. It is quite possible that more and more people marrying in the Church are not making valid vows. We already know more marriages end in divorce than they did in 1930 in our culture. There is certainly not the social pressure to remain married that was present in our culture in 1930.
The more significant number would be the fact that Catholics have the lowest percentage of divorce in comparison to the rest of American society. How many of those 21% end in annulment?
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Eden
Guest
I agree that the factors that make a marriage null are a rejection of the gift of God - the Sacrament of Matrimony. What annulment means is that one or both of the parties who participated in the Sacrament of Matrimony did so under false pretenses. That the intention to live the Sacrament and join in this union was not there from the very day of the marriage:
A declaration of nullity within the Catholic Church is a decision that a given marriage lacked one of the essential elements listed below from the beginning and was therefore not a sacramental marriage. It is a judgment that one or both of the parties did not give proper consent to marriage. This judgment is reached through a full and careful inquiry into the history of the individuals and the marriage. A marriage is presumed to be valid unless proven otherwise.
- Did you and your former spouse freely enter into this marriage?
- Did you and your former spouse know who you were marrying?
- Did you and your former spouse know what it meant to be married?
“The Catholic Church says in order for this sacrament to be valid, certain conditions should be present. If these conditions are not present, it does not necessarily mean that the sacrament lacks validity. It does mean that there may be cause to investigate further to determine if the relationship was of a sacramental nature or not. This process is what is referred to as the process of annulment. Any person has the right to request that the Catholic Church investigate whether his or her marriage was sacramental and to request a Decree of Nullity.”
www.lcdiocese.org/Annulments/coverpage.htm
The Catholics here have been very free and willing to discuss annulments despite the fact that this is not the thread topic. Our teaching is biblical. But I would like to mention that the other posters here continue to attack annulments rather than answering how their own faiths justify the unbiblical teaching of remarriage after divorce.
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blackbelt
Guest
john ennis:
But the point is all denominations are facing the same problem, I think RC and Assemblies of God need to unify and begin teaching about the family unit again among other things also. We’re defiantly living in the end times and more than ever all Christian’s worldwide need to put there theological differences aside and unite THE WORLD NEEDS US.
Statistically speaking RC does have the lowest rate of divorce, but those are divorces that went through an annulment process, what rate have divorced and not gone through the annulment process is difficult to know. Also many elderly widows I know are co habituating with a partner and instead of marrying what they are doing is having there persist bless the rings, they do not want to marry because then they will lose there widows pension,
But the point is all denominations are facing the same problem, I think RC and Assemblies of God need to unify and begin teaching about the family unit again among other things also. We’re defiantly living in the end times and more than ever all Christian’s worldwide need to put there theological differences aside and unite THE WORLD NEEDS US.
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Eden
Guest
Do you see the word “Trinity” in your Bible? It is the idea of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit that is present in the Bible. The Church calls it the “Trinity”.
In the same way, you see examples in the Bible of how a marriage can be declared null - “Pauline privilege” and “porneia”. The declaring of a marriage null is called “annulment” because annulment means “to declare null”.
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Kay_Cee
Guest
Okay, this didn’t quite answer the question. If a person is “put out of the church” due to divorce, what happens if he returns? What if, by then, his wife has remarried someone else? Is he then allowed to take another wife?
I obviously did not state my question well. You took it to mean adultery committed *before *a divorce. I meant it as *after *a divorce–let’s say in both cases a civil divorce was granted because of irreconcilable differences. Now here’s what I’m seeing in many Protestant churches: Two such divorced persons get married to each other. If we take seriously Jesus’ statement that if they remarry, they commit adultery, they are entering into an adulterous relationship, with the full blessing and sanction of their church. I hope I explained it well this time.
What really bothers me about this is that in such a situation, another person’s sin would be voiding a sacred vow I personally made to God, without my desire or consent. That vow is not just between me and my husband, it’s also between God and me. Nobody has the right to void a sacred vow I make to God but God. Sin is evil. How can evil void a sacred vow I made to God? If that’s the case, isn’t evil greater than sanctity?
I just put in the quote by Chesterton to illustrate my point. I’m very disturbed by someone standing before God and breaking one vow by making another.
Well, that’s another ball of wax, and if we want to debate the meaning of porneia, we should start another thread.
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