Trads and neo-trads

[GerardP]

I might add that such general sweeping statements about a particular English construction is worse than useless.

Nonsense, it’s very useful. Language is important for clarity.

Perhaps you would agree with me that relatively recent proclamations of the Immaculate Conception and Miraculous Assumption, and a general understanding of the history of what Newman would call “the developement of Christian Doctrine,” prove that the Church is moving forward in her understanding of Dogmas and the Christian Faith, not backward toward a time before the Dogma of the Trinity had been defined.

Why forward? Why not an enriching spiral? Why not a building up? Why not an unfolding?

We now have more defined Dogmas than we ever have had; we shall never have less. Thus, the Church is moving forward in her understanding of the Christian faith.

Why? Why is our understanding not built upon the understanding of those who built up the Church?

Context is everything, and as I posted earlier, analogies are limited. To anathamize a general analogy–“vertical language, horizontal language, moving forward”–is as absurd as anathamizing a carinal direction–“North is of the devil!”

Sort of like “Salvation shall come from the East?” and East symbolizing the Rising Son? and the Gospel turned North in order to defend the faith from the enemies of the North? Is that the kind of absurdity you’re talking about?

 

[consumedconvert]

Nonsense, it’s very useful. Language is important for clarity.

Why forward? Why not an enriching spiral? Why not a building up? Why not an unfolding?

It could be an unfolding, I suppose, or a building up, or …

Why? Why is our understanding not built upon the understanding of those who built up the Church?

So are you denying that we now have more Dogmas than we ever did? Are you saying that’s a bad thing? Surely you are not denying the Immaculate Conception or Miraculous Assumption?

Sort of like “Salvation shall come from the East?” and East symbolizing the Rising Son? and the Gospel turned North in order to defend the faith from the enemies of the North? Is that the kind of absurdity you’re talking about?

Like I said, context is everything. Take away the context and you get meaningless condemnations of rhetorical constructions.

 

[ethelzguy]

I think that during the early Middle Ages and the Italian Renaissance there were some pretty horrific popes (Stephen VI Alexander VI come to mind) that dwarf anything the 20th century saw. I don’t think the average Catholic thought too much about it though, because it didn’t affect them personally and there was no way of knowing what was going on hundreds or thousands of miles away before mass communication technology. It was only when the local clergy started to degenerate that people became concerned. There weren’t long arguments at the pub concerning the implications of the Fifth Council of the Lateran.

Wasn’t it during the Middle Ages, that it was discovered that many priests didn’t even know Latin because they were illiterate, and they were caught “just mumbling” at the altar?

 

[KingAlfred]

Divisions and sub-divisions. What’s next, a thread discussing the differences between Catholic “neo-trads” and “neo-neo-trads?”

Sorry, but I hate labels which divide. They serve little to no useful purpose.

One says, “I am of Apollos,” another “I am of Paul”. But they are both of Christ.

We are CATHOLIC. Within Catholicism are many different spiritualities and personalities. But they need not be separate and labelled, like canned soups in a market place. Personalities and spiritualities mix, and Catholics, though different in many ways, must unite.

We are Catholic. Let’s leave it at that.

Amen. That’s how I look at it. Just being Catholic is not only ‘good enough’ for me, but the work of my entire life-time. In my sinfulness, I’ve never been able to achieve Catholic self-mastery, and probably never will. Nonetheless, I will never quit trying. That is my* life.*

 

[ethelzguy]

Amen. That’s how I look at it. Just being Catholic is not only ‘good enough’ for me, but the work of my entire life-time. In my sinfulness, I’ve never been able to achieve Catholic self-mastery, and probably never will. Nonetheless, I will never quit trying. That is my* life.*

Sometimes I wonder how many people are so busy “studying” and pontificating over the Church and the Faith, that they never really get out there and Live It.

 

[pnewton]

Anything about the Church “moving forward” and not “going back” to the past is framed by progressive thinking.

I understand now what you mean by “horizontal.” You are using it to refer to liturgical development. You are then following the reasoning, if not the same terms of Cardinal Ratzinger in “The Spirit of the Liturgy.”

I was confused by the frequent criticism where “horizontal” means the relationship with each other instead of the vertical focus on God. I guess we talked past each other. My bad.

 

[pnewton]

Sometimes I wonder how many people are so busy “studying” and pontificating over the Church and the Faith, that they never really get out there and Live It.

As my priest said last month, sometimes we focus too much on making believers and not enough on making disciples.

 

[pnewton]

Wasn’t it during the Middle Ages, that it was discovered that many priests didn’t even know Latin because they were illiterate, and they were caught “just mumbling” at the altar?

That is because people or still people, then and now. Those that see this liturgy or that as a magic bullet miss the root problem. It is the individual priest that makes the most or the least out of Mass.

 

[ethelzguy]

As my priest said last month, sometimes we focus too much on making believers and not enough on making disciples.

I almost had to laugh last night at Mass, wondering how many posters here would have complained about what took place.

The lectors were quite articulate, the cantor had a voice that would bring most gals to their knees. But, they all spoke/sang from the pulpit, as we do not have a seperate lectern.

To start the homily, our pastor wished everyone a great 4th of July weekend, then reached over on a table and blew a giant air horn…THAT woke everyone up better that an opening joke ever could.

Then he had a super homily on “freedom” and how true religious freedom required us to stand against things like abortion, etc.

After Communion, he allowed two teenagers to speak. They were on some sort of Pro-Life cross-country walk.

And we now have a great pipe organist, who played “Glory and Praise” songs.

So, for all the “good things” we had at our Mass, I kept wondering how many folks at CAF would be jumping off bridges, screaming “abuse, abuse”

 

[moderate_trad]

I almost had to laugh last night at Mass, wondering how many posters here would have complained about what took place.

The lectors were quite articulate, the cantor had a voice that would bring most gals to their knees. But, they all spoke/sang from the pulpit, as we do not have a seperate lectern.

To start the homily, our pastor wished everyone a great 4th of July weekend, then reached over on a table and blew a giant air horn…THAT woke everyone up better that an opening joke ever could.

Then he had a super homily on “freedom” and how true religious freedom required us to stand against things like abortion, etc.

After Communion, he allowed two teenagers to speak. They were on some sort of Pro-Life cross-country walk.

And we now have a great pipe organist, who played “Glory and Praise” songs.

So, for all the “good things” we had at our Mass, I kept wondering how many folks at CAF would be jumping off bridges, screaming “abuse, abuse”

Well, I don’t really think that the description of the Mass fits in with the reverence, solemnity, and awe that befits the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass. First of all, it seems to divert people away from God and to themselves. Is it really necessary to have the cantor at the pulpit? Wouldn’t their voice carry from the choir loft as well without the silly spectacle of having them raise their arms to make people sing? Second, the priest is another Christ, especially when he performs the sacraments. While it might be appropriate for him to wish everyone a happy holiday, it’s not really appropriate or keeping with his sacerdotal dignity to blow air horns in the sanctuary. Third, why did the teenagers have to speak and draw attention to themselves after Holy Communion when everyone is supposed to be engaged in loving conversation with our Lord? Couldn’t their talk about the pro-life walk have been held before or after Mass? Fourth, I’d argue that glory and praise music is another way of deflecting attention away from the divine. Yes, many of the hymns might have edifying, pious lyrics and attractive melodies, but their contemporary, almost Broadway style sound reminds one of the secular world rather than removing one from it. The Mass becomes banal rather than transcendent.

What I really find disturbing is that so often the liturgy becomes the private property of the parish rather than that of the Church and depends so much on the personality of the priest. This problem is much less prevalent in the EF.

 

[ethelzguy]

Like I said…

 

[moderate_trad]

Like I said…

I think that sloppiness in liturgy is too important to pass by without comment. I’m not attacking the piety or zeal of your priest or the people who attended the Mass, which might very well be exemplary.

 

[consumedconvert]

I think that sloppiness in liturgy is too important to pass by without comment. I’m not attacking the piety or zeal of your priest or the people who attended the Mass, which might very well be exemplary.

MT, while I do disagree with you on some points (in this particular instance you are discussing I think I would have had to have been there and so will suspend my personal judgment), I must mention that I very much appreciate your kind and respectful approach to the argument. Thank you for your balanced disagreement and honesty here–the presumption of right intent even on the part of those with whom you disagree.

In all sincerety, thank you for your kindess. Well done.

 

[BrendanD]

Some people sit in Mass complaining about liturgical abuse.

Some people sit in Mass complaining about people who sit in Mass complaining about liturgical abuse.

Same difference.

 

[moderate_trad]

MT, while I do disagree with you on some points (in this particular instance you are discussing I think I would have had to have been there and so will suspend my personal judgment), I must mention that I very much appreciate your kind and respectful approach to the argument. Thank you for your balanced disagreement and honesty here–the presumption of right intent even on the part of those with whom you disagree.

In all sincerety, thank you for your kindess. Well done.

Thank you for your nice words. I think that some the ranting and raving that one hears on the part of certain traditionalists is childish and uncharitable, even when “just anger” is legitimate.

 

[pnewton]

Some people sit in Mass complaining about liturgical abuse.

Some people sit in Mass complaining about people who sit in Mass complaining about liturgical abuse.

Same difference.

That is food for thought.

We should be thankful we don’t use laptops and post during Mass.

 

[consumedconvert]

That is food for thought.

We should be thankful we don’t use laptops and post during Mass.

LOL!

I agree that sitting and simmering during the Mass–no matter which side of the (preverbial?) aisle you’re on–is the last thing we should do.

 

[Ohwesty]

Well, I don’t really think that the description of the Mass fits in with the reverence, solemnity, and awe that befits the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass. First of all, it seems to divert people away from God and to themselves. Is it really necessary to have the cantor at the pulpit? Wouldn’t their voice carry from the choir loft as well without the silly spectacle of having them raise their arms to make people sing?

snip/

Fourth, I’d argue that glory and praise music is another way of deflecting attention away from the divine. Yes, many of the hymns might have edifying, pious lyrics and attractive melodies, but their contemporary, almost Broadway style sound reminds one of the secular world rather than removing one from it. The Mass becomes banal rather than transcendent.

I couldn’t agree more. Our 150-year-old church has a perfectly fine choir loft, now collecting cobwebs, because for the past 20 plus years the organist, cantor and choir are up in the sanctuary. It’s horribly distracting. There is just no way that you can’t notice them, especially during the Gloria and the Responsorial Psalm.

It’s doubly bad when your choir director is the conductor for the Metropolitan Orchestra. Oh, we’ve got GREAT music! Perhaps there’s such a thing as “too great.” The Mass has become a flawless show, a well rehearsed choreographed production. You almost feel like you’re supposed to applaud after each number. Maestro, take a bow.

Don’t get me wrong. I am all for talented people offering their gifts of music and song to the Lord. But this, too, can get out of control, as it did in the days just before Pope St. Pius X reformed liturgical music. There was a lot of classical music in the churches of the 18th and 19th centuries. Beautiful as it is, that was the contemporary music of its time. Is this much different from the folk guitarists who bring their “popular culture” into the liturgy?

Give me the Gregorian chant any day, or Sacred Hymns in accord with Catholic doctrine. Give me voices singing a capella, or an organist who occasionally hits a sour note. At least that’s REAL. (Pardon my rant… I guess I needed to get that out of my system.)

 

[BrendanD]

That is food for thought.

We should be thankful we don’t use laptops and post during Mass.

Now that you mention it, there probably is WiFi access at the local university chapel

 

[consumedconvert]

I
Give me the Gregorian chant any day, or Sacred Hymns in accord with Catholic doctrine. Give me voices singing a capella, or an organist who occasionally hits a sour note. At least that’s REAL. (Pardon my rant… I guess I needed to get that out of my system.)

You’d LOVE our organist!!

(just kidding…)