Trads and neo-trads

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Ohwesty said:
I couldn’t agree more. Our 150-year-old church has a perfectly fine choir loft, now collecting cobwebs, because for the past 20 plus years the organist, cantor and choir are up in the sanctuary. It’s horribly distracting. There is just no way that you can’t notice them, especially during the Gloria and the Responsorial Psalm.

It’s doubly bad when your choir director is the conductor for the Metropolitan Orchestra. Oh, we’ve got GREAT music! Perhaps there’s such a thing as “too great.” The Mass has become a flawless show, a well rehearsed choreographed production. You almost feel like you’re supposed to applaud after each number. Maestro, take a bow.

Don’t get me wrong. I am all for talented people offering their gifts of music and song to the Lord. But this, too, can get out of control, as it did in the days just before Pope St. Pius X reformed liturgical music. There was a lot of classical music in the churches of the 18th and 19th centuries. Beautiful as it is, that was the contemporary music of its time. Is this much different from the folk guitarists who bring their “popular culture” into the liturgy?

Give me the Gregorian chant any day, or Sacred Hymns in accord with Catholic doctrine. Give me voices singing a capella, or an organist who occasionally hits a sour note. At least that’s REAL. (Pardon my rant… I guess I needed to get that out of my system.)

😦
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Well, look at the Christmas carol, “O Holy Night.” Yes, it’s beautiful, but it was written by a composer chiefly associated with ballet and opera and doesn’t sound all that different from his secular music. No wonder the ecclesiastical authorities complained about it. It’s one thing to sing it in a Christmas concert, it’s quite another to have it in a sacred setting.
 
Trad

Neo-Trad

Semi-Neo-Trad

Trans-Neo-Trad

Paleo-Trad

Semi-Paleo-Trad

Trans-Peleo-Trad

Ultra-Paleo-Trad

Did I miss any?
 
Attributing some person’s life of sin and how they rationalize it, and then inferring JPII’s writing as somehow affecting it or encouraging it certainly doesn’t say anything negative about JPII. Many homosexuals twist scripture to justify their sins as well, so I hope you weren’t trying to comment negatively on JPII with this. (Relatively soon to be Saint JPII I might add).
GerardP said:
They aren’t bickering about who is more Catholic they are bickering about what is more Catholic (or not more Catholic) and why it is more or less Catholic.

Here’s an example, the great pianist Stephen Hough is a convert from Anglicanism. He’s a supporter of the restoration of the TLM. **He’s also a fan of John Paul II’s book, Love and Responsibility, because he took the concepts expressed by the Pope and came to the conclusion that they apply to homosexual relationships as well. He abandoned his life of chastity and the call to celibacy and now has rationalized that the Church will eventually change it’s position. This is based on an idea that doctrine evolves, the historical critical method of biblical exegesis and JPII’s phenomenology. **

When it comes to Liturgy he’s with the trads and the neo-trads all the way. But he’s in complete error when it comes to understanding the broad doctrinal concepts underlying the traditions.

The moderate trads and the trads that want Vatican II to be overturned completely, the Novus Ordo abrogated have an equal gulf between them, though liturgically they may share some preferences.
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I’m not sure I know where to start in disagreeing with you, but first of all cantoring in the front or back is not the issue. The issue is whether the Holy Spirit is present, and flowing through His ministers, the Priest, and the music, and whwther the music is reverential and not conflciting with the Catholic faith. I’ve seen cantors in front singing so loud with the organ so loud you could not even hear yourself sing, let alone sing together.

It’s not the instrument, but how it’s done. I would remind those who insist organ is the only way and guitars are voodoo, as a musician, there is no mention of organs in scripture however there is with repsect to stringed instruments. Take the Jesuit song “I will play for Him on my harp, with my lute and **ten-stringed lyre” **. All of the original Glory and Praise songs have multiple scripture references as to what they are built on, most times almost verbatim, but very near it.

I have also seen a guitar group that was very obviosuly a big production, and I mean loud, but it seemed to completely leave the Holy Spirit behind. Even as one who favors guitar playing, I was like, what is this, i looked liked the lead singer was going for a Broadway award? I have seen praise and worship very powerful and holy. So, I think a lot of times the more selfless and ego-free and Spirit filled a music leader is, the better the music ministers. You have to be in communion with the Lord to conver His Spirit.
moderate_trad said:
Well, I don’t really think that the description of the Mass fits in with the reverence, solemnity, and awe that befits the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass. First of all, it seems to divert people away from God and to themselves. Is it really necessary to have the cantor at the pulpit? Wouldn’t their voice carry from the choir loft as well without the silly spectacle of having them raise their arms to make people sing? Second, the priest is another Christ, especially when he performs the sacraments. While it might be appropriate for him to wish everyone a happy holiday, it’s not really appropriate or keeping with his sacerdotal dignity to blow air horns in the sanctuary. Third, why did the teenagers have to speak and draw attention to themselves after Holy Communion when everyone is supposed to be engaged in loving conversation with our Lord? Couldn’t their talk about the pro-life walk have been held before or after Mass? Fourth, I’d argue that glory and praise music is another way of deflecting attention away from the divine. Yes, many of the hymns might have edifying, pious lyrics and attractive melodies, but their contemporary, almost Broadway style sound reminds one of the secular world rather than removing one from it. The Mass becomes banal rather than transcendent.

What I really find disturbing is that so often the liturgy becomes the private property of the parish rather than that of the Church and depends so much on the personality of the priest. This problem is much less prevalent in the EF.
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BrendanD said:
Some people sit in Mass complaining about liturgical abuse.

Some people sit in Mass complaining about people who sit in Mass complaining about liturgical abuse.

Same difference.
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And some people sit at keyboards, complaining about people who complain about complainers…

Sorry, couldn’t pass that one up. 😃 :tiphat:
 
moderate_trad said:
I think that sloppiness in liturgy is too important to pass by without comment. I’m not attacking the piety or zeal of your priest or the people who attended the Mass, which might very well be exemplary.
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In fairness, I just KNEW that someone wouldn’t be able to resist.

Our pastor is great. Even our bulletin has little nuances like the Mass schedule being listed as “Holy Sacrifice of the Mass”…Daily rosaries before daily Mass…the Perpetual Adoration Chapel…little things that most traditionalists would like.

But for all the good, there will always be something that someone will find fault with. 🤷
 
pnewton said:
That is food for thought.

We should be thankful we don’t use laptops and post during Mass.
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But we do apparently have those who shoot photos and video to share with the abuse police. 😃
 
ethelzguy said:
And some people sit at keyboards, complaining about people who complain about complainers…

Sorry, couldn’t pass that one up. 😃 :tiphat:
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Well, some people sit at keyboard complaining about people that sit at…oh, nevermind.
 
Okay, guys…into what category does Pat Buchanon fall? Trad? Paleo-Trad? Ultra-Paleo-Trad? Trad-Trad?:confused:😃 😛
 
ethelzguy said:
In fairness, I just KNEW that someone wouldn’t be able to resist.

Our pastor is great. Even our bulletin has little nuances like the Mass schedule being listed as “Holy Sacrifice of the Mass”…Daily rosaries before daily Mass…the Perpetual Adoration Chapel…little things that most traditionalists would like.

But for all the good, there will always be something that someone will find fault with. 🤷
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See, that’s one of the things that I think differentiates Catholics who are attached to the older liturgical forms. It’s a mindset about the liturgy which, unfortunately, does at times express itself in a certain pharisaical manner. On the other hand, I like to think that an emphasis on liturgical stability, in the EF or the OF, shows a laudable attempt to subject one’s own preferences to that of the Church. In theory it should make the priest and congregation more humble, but it can have an opposite effect when the rubrics become an end unto themselves, and it becomes a contest as to how liturgically correct one can be.
 
christisall said:
Attributing some person’s life of sin and how they rationalize it, and then inferring JPII’s writing as somehow affecting it or encouraging it certainly doesn’t say anything negative about JPII. Many homosexuals twist scripture to justify their sins as well, so I hope you weren’t trying to comment negatively on JPII with this. (Relatively soon to be Saint JPII I might add).
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Sure it does. JPII’s philosophy and writing were reckless and unsecure. Theology of the Body is a trainwreck and it has lead to all of this experiential, phenomenological “shot in the dark” religious experience.

Fr. Malachi Martin in describing JPII’s philosophy said, “He has evoked error and people trying to understand him have fallen into heresy.”

It was never JPII"s job to be a “philosopher” or “give the Church” some new methodology of looking at the world. His job was to protect and guard the deposit of faith. He did not do a good job of that.

As far as the canonization goes, I certainly hoped his soul was saved, but as far as heroic virtue goes, He has too many negatives on his papacy for it to be wise to raise him to the altars.
 
I firmly believe he will be called,** St. John Paul the Great. **
Prayers & blessings
Deacon Ed B
 
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