Trads and neo-trads

[GerardP]

Then let me un-baffle it for you. Your opinion is just that, your opinion.

As if all opinions are of the same weight. What does “opine” actually mean?

There are many in the world that you will find do not share the same opinion as you.

There’s an understatement. There are thoughtful opinions and stupid opinions. I’m just trying to sift through them.

Therefore, some actually do “get” John Paul II in a way that you may not. This is not a good/bad issue. It is your opinion.

If at the end of the day, people who “get” JPII , want him canonized and still don’t believe in the Catholic faith as it has always been believed, we have a real problem.

What is not opinion is that he was chosen by the Holy Spirit to lead the Church over others, such as Fr. Malachi, whom I readily admit that I do not get.

He was NOT I repeat, NOT positively chosen by the Holy Ghost to lead the Church over others. God’s permissive will allowed him to assume the papacy after the College of Cardinals cast sufficient votes for him. This is no different than the fact that God’s permissive will Allowed Cardinal Siri to turn down the papacy after he’d gotten sufficient votes.

 

[ethelzguy]

He was NOT I repeat, NOT positively chosen by the Holy Ghost to lead the Church over others. God’s permissive will allowed him to assume the papacy after the College of Cardinals cast sufficient votes for him.

How do you KNOW that “God’s permissive will allowed him to assume the papacy”? We have all been taught that the Holy Spirit leads God’s Church on Earth.

Nice way of denigrating a Pope that you disagree with.

 

[Deacon_Ed_B]

Yes. I remember that day very well. I’ve never yet figured out what exactly he was talking about.

How did he point this out with the necessity of belonging to the Catholic Church? Your description sounds like the same things the Rev. Billy Graham has said for decades.

But unfortunately, he didn’t help shape their faith correctly. Just look at John Vennari’s DVD’s (parts are on youtube) showing the lack of teaching that children been the victims of when it comes to showing respect for God’s House.

In 1978 he had the opportunity to engage in a major restoration. He chose not to do that.

I don’t know. I’ve seen young bishops who don’t even twitch a knee to the tabernacle. Many priests I know simply don’t believe in the faith in a clear and simple way. Many deny articles of faith. They believe in Karl Rahner more than Christ.

He knew about these things and was warned about them for years. LeFebvre told him numerous times, Fr. Martin told him to his face a number of times. Fr. Martin said, “We have covered his eyes with papers and photos. We have filled his ears with taped recordings. We have given him first class reports and he has done nothing. NOTHING!”

Mr. Messori the Italian journalist who published “Crossing the Threshold of Hope” pressed him on questions about the crisis in the Church. He said that John Paul II pounded the table and told him there is no crisis.

Why that deep mysticism translated into so many scandalous and confusing messages is part of the mystery.

It’s very possible to love someone and still know they did a bad job at something. A diocesan priest once told me something like, 'Pretending his faults didn’t exist doesn’t do anyone any good."

We can all pray for the repose of his soul, which is what we should be doing right now. But I believe B16 is spending his whole pontificate cleaning up a mess left behind and it will be B16’s successors who will have to continue that task.

You asked my opinion. I have given it to you. Whether you accept it or not is up to you. He also aided in the fall of Communism in Poland and Eastern Germany and whether you accept it or not, the fall of the Iron Curtain in general. The world would be much worse off than it is had he not been our pope when he was. If you don’t think that is correct, so be it, thats your opinion which you are entitled to. I will stick with mine.
Prayers & blessings
Deacon Ed B

 

[GerardP]

You asked my opinion. I have given it to you. Whether you accept it or not is up to you.

I appreciate it. I asked why you held your opinion, you supplied certain positions. I supplied additional information. I look at as much information as possible in order to form my opinions. That’s all.

He also aided in the fall of Communism in Poland and Eastern Germany and whether you accept it or not, the fall of the Iron Curtain in general. The world would be much worse off than it is had he not been our pope when he was. If you don’t think that is correct, so be it, thats your opinion which you are entitled to. I will stick with mine.
Prayers & blessings
Deacon Ed B

We can speculate all day and that’s fine. I used to speculate that he would do something radical to end the crisis in the Church before he died. I don’t mean to upset you.

 

[Deacon_Ed_B]

If at the end of the day, people who “get” JPII , want him canonized and still don’t believe in the Catholic faith as it has always been believed, we have a real problem.

He was NOT I repeat, NOT positively chosen by the Holy Ghost to lead the Church over others. God’s permissive will allowed him to assume the papacy after the College of Cardinals cast sufficient votes for him. This is no different than the fact that God’s permissive will Allowed Cardinal Siri to turn down the papacy after he’d gotten sufficient votes.

With conclusions like this, you have the audacity to say people who do not believe in the Catholic Church as it was are those who follow Pope John Paul II, The Great. I would sincerely suggest you re-examine what you said, in light of Church teaching. I don’t remember the Holy Spirit giving you the promise of the guidance he gives to the Holy Father. In this case Pope John Paul II, The great.
Prayers & blessings
Deacon Ed B

 

[GerardP]

How do you KNOW that “God’s permissive will allowed him to assume the papacy”? We have all been taught that the Holy Spirit leads God’s Church on Earth.

Nice way of denigrating a Pope that you disagree with.

1. I’m not denigrating him.
2. Who’s the “we” in “we have all been taught…” ?

Where have you been taught this? The Holy Ghost guarantees only two things. The Church will not be completely destroyed and when the Pope speaks ex cathedra, it is infallible. All the rest is up for grabs.

One of the reasons the symbol of the dove is given to the Holy Ghost is because the dove will not bother with people if they don’t want to be bothered. It can be shewed away very easily and it stays away.

 

[GerardP]

With conclusions like this, you have the audacity to say people who do not believe in the Catholic Church as it was are those who follow Pope John Paul II, The Great. I would sincerely suggest you re-examine what you said, in light of Church teaching. I don’t remember the Holy Spirit giving you the promise of the guidance he gives to the Holy Father. In this case Pope John Paul II, The great.
Prayers & blessings
Deacon Ed B

People who follow John Paul II believe any number of things. Some of which he said, some of which he never said. Recently one of the Cardinals pointed out to Pope Benedict that he doesn’t think John Paul II would have been happy with a nun on television who said that Pope John Paul II “showed us that all religions are equal.” The amazing thing is he said, “he thinks” meaning he wasn’t sure.

What specific “guidance” are you talking about that was promised to John Paul II? Can you point to some conciliar document or some encyclicals?

I don’t know your specific history but it your comment has all the earmarks of what used to be called “Catholic Pentecostalism.”

 

[GerardP]

Recently one of the Cardinals pointed out to Pope Benedict that he doesn’t think John Paul II would have been happy with a nun on television who said that Pope John Paul II “showed us that all religions are equal.” The amazing thing is he said, “he thinks” meaning he wasn’t sure.

It was Cardinal Biffi just before the conclave when the Cardinals met. It’s recounted in his memoirs.

“A few days ago, I saw on television an elderly, devout religious sister who responded to the interviewer this way: ‘This pope, who has died, was great above all because he taught us that all religions are equal’. I don’t know whether John Paul II would have been very pleased by this sort of elegy.”

 

[consumedconvert]

People who follow John Paul II believe any number of things. Some of which he said, some of which he never said. Recently one of the Cardinals pointed out to Pope Benedict that he doesn’t think John Paul II would have been happy with a nun on television who said that Pope John Paul II “showed us that all religions are equal.” The amazing thing is he said, “he thinks” meaning he wasn’t sure.

What specific “guidance” are you talking about that was promised to John Paul II? Can you point to some conciliar document or some encyclicals?

I don’t know your specific history but it your comment has all the earmarks of what used to be called “Catholic Pentecostalism.”

The Holy Spirit guiding the Pope is Pentecostilism?

??

 

[pnewton]

The Holy Spirit guiding the Pope is Pentecostilism?

??

Yeah, you have to put me down for that one, although I do not enjoy labels as much as some enjoy dishing them out. Still, if I did not believe the Holy Spirit was using the Holy Father to guide the Church, I would never have become Catholic. Why tust that the Holy Spirit spoke through Piux X, Clement I or Gregory the Great, yet not John Paul II?

 

[GerardP]

Yeah, you have to put me down for that one, although I do not enjoy labels as much as some enjoy dishing them out. Still, if I did not believe the Holy Spirit was using the Holy Father to guide the Church, I would never have become Catholic. Why tust that the Holy Spirit spoke through Piux X, Clement I or Gregory the Great, yet not John Paul II?

The Holy Ghost spoke through St. Peter. He was the only Pope that was given Revelation. No other Pope has had or can have that specific charism.

The infallibility of the Pope is called a negative charism. It prevents him from doing specific things in specific circumstances. It does not suspend the free will of the Pope or protect him in his governance of the Church.

Can someone point to a magisterial document that explains this idea of the Holy Ghost “guiding the Church through the Pope,” because otherwise, it’s sheer wishful thinking.

 

[GerardP]

The Holy Spirit guiding the Pope is Pentecostilism? ??

No. The idea that the Holy Ghost is guiding the Pope is a false belief held by Catholics who are doctrinally more along the lines of a Pentecostal Protestant than a Catholic.

A little more knowledge and we can gum up the works a bit more. There is a pious tradition in the Church that the Pope’s guardian angel is St. Michael. What’s to prevent a Catholic from saying that St. Michael guides the Pope? Or Our Lady? How do you distinguish the intercessory guidance from the “hands on the wheel” guidance attributed to the Holy Ghost? And where does the free will of the Pope get factored in?

The idea that the Holy Ghost “selects” the Pope during the Conclave is a pure myth. I believe it was Cardinal Schonborn who said as much.

The idea that the Pope’s actions are directly guided by the Holy Ghost is equally mythical.

The Pope has as free a will and is as open or closed to grace and the intercession of Saints as any one of us.

 

[Pax_et_Caritas]

The Holy Ghost spoke through St. Peter. He was the only Pope that was given Revelation. No other Pope has had or can have that specific charism.

The infallibility of the Pope is called a negative charism. It prevents him from doing specific things in specific circumstances. It does not suspend the free will of the Pope or protect him in his governance of the Church.

Can someone point to a magisterial document that explains this idea of the Holy Ghost “guiding the Church through the Pope,” because otherwise, it’s sheer wishful thinking.

Exactly. People act as though the Bishops and Pope are puppets without free will who are being directed in every move by the Holy Ghost.

If that was the case, where was the Holy Ghost when Pope Honorious and Pope John XXII were teaching heresy? Where was the Holy Ghost during the great western schism when every living Cardinal was following an anti-Pope, rather than the true Pope?

If that were the case, why would there be good and bad Popes? If the Holy Ghost took away the free will of the Popes and directed them like puppets, they would all be good - perfect, in fact.

The Holy Ghost does not take away the free will of the Bishops or even the Pope. The only guarantee we have is that the Holy Ghost will prevent the Pope from defining an error de fide, and the gates of hell will not prevail against the Church. That means the Church will survive any crisis. It doesn’t mean the Church will be prevented from having a crisis.

 

[GerardP]

To add to that: If the Holy Ghost was so intimately involved in the papacy why is it that only 3 Popes have been canonized in the last 1000 years?

 

[pnewton]

The infallibility of the Pope is called a negative charism…

I was not referring to infallibility, nor did I mention it. I was referring to guidance, as in:
CCC #768 - So that she can fulfill her mission, the Holy Spirit “bestows upon [the Church] varied hierarchic and charismatic gifts, and in this way directs her.”

From Lumen Gentium:

The Church, which the Spirit guides in way of all truth(15) and which He unified in communion and in works of ministry, He both equips and directs with hierarchical and charismatic gifts and adorns with His fruits…
But the college or body of bishops has no authority unless it is understood together with the Roman Pontiff, the successor of Peter as its head. The pope’s power of primacy over all, both pastors and faithful, remains whole and intact. In virtue of his office, that is as Vicar of Christ and pastor of the whole Church, the Roman Pontiff has full, supreme and universal power over the Church. And he is always free to exercise this power. The order of bishops, which succeeds to the college of apostles and gives this apostolic body continued existence, is also the subject of supreme and full power over the universal Church, provided we understand this body together with its head the Roman Pontiff and never without this head.(27*) This power can be exercised only with the consent of the Roman Pontiff. For our Lord placed Simon alone as the rock and the bearer of the keys of the Church,(156) and made him shepherd of the whole flock

I know that the pope can make mistakes and act unwisely. It in no way affects his role as leader. However, it is part of his charism that he has the help of the Holy Spirit in his guidance of the Church. I can understand why there might be a question over a decision here or there, but when several succecesors in a row continue basically the same course, it can only be the work of the Holy Spirit.

 

[KingAlfred]

What are you comparing his work to?

Superlatives aside, what is it specifically that makes it so good?

He was capable of battling raw Communism because he was a protege’ of Cardinal Wyzinski.

He was not prepared in any way to fight against Western materialism. He never could penetrate beyond the 'rock star" image that he portrayed. People would cheer him without even hearing what he said.

True. I find the adulation baffling unless someone is unfamiliar with the great Popes of the past.

It was in reading St. Pius X that I found what a great Pope could write and teach.

Who do you say the really great popes were and why? Curious.

 

[GerardP]

The only guarantee we have is that the Holy Ghost will prevent the Pope from defining an error de fide, and the gates of hell will not prevail against the Church. That means the Church will survive any crisis. It doesn’t mean the Church will be prevented from having a crisis.

We don’t even know the form that that guarantee takes. We know when a definition is being put forth. We know that language but we don’t know what prevents a Pope from speaking heresy ex cathedra. It could very well be death. That should make every Pope extremely careful about what they say.

 

[KingAlfred]

Can ‘trad’ be used as a verb? For example, “Oh…he’s just out tradding again.”

 

[Pax_et_Caritas]

Can ‘trad’ be used as a verb? For example, “Oh…he’s just out tradding again.”

Good point. I think it can. In that case, the verb “tradding” (to trad) would mean “defending the faith against Liberalism”.

 

[KingAlfred]

Good point. I think it can. In that case, the verb “tradding” (to trad) would mean “defending the faith against Liberalism”.

So, do you have sound tradding skills?

“I’d rather be tradding.”