Trail of Blood and nowadays Baptists

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My friends are Baptist and believe in the theory of the Trail of Blood. They are passionate about researching the Baptist roots of Christianity. I don’t know much about the Trail of Blood, but I understand it includes some communities who were persecuted by both the Catholic and Protestant Churches. Can anybody explain the Trail of Blood theory? Is it reasonable to think that some ancient communities believed and worshiped God the way nowadays Baptist do? Thanks and God Bless everyone.
 
My friends are Baptist and believe in the theory of the Trail of Blood. They are passionate about researching the Baptist roots of Christianity. I don’t know much about the Trail of Blood, but I understand it includes some communities who were persecuted by both the Catholic and Protestant Churches. Can anybody explain the Trail of Blood theory? Is it reasonable to think that some ancient communities believed and worshiped God the way nowadays Baptist do? Thanks and God Bless everyone.
The Orthodox had been persecuted by Catholics, but I don’t think ever by Protestants.

Trail of Blood Theory is a term I’ve not heard used before.

No, I don’t think it is reasonable to think that some ancient communities believed and worshiped God the way nowaday Baptists do. Early Church Christian writings are too specific about the Church being guided by Bishops, having a Priesthood and worship centered around the Most Holy Eucharist the Very Body and Very Blood of our Lord Jesus Christ.
 
If they were there then, they were called heretics.

What changed?
 
My friends are Baptist and believe in the theory of the Trail of Blood. They are passionate about researching the Baptist roots of Christianity. I don’t know much about the Trail of Blood, but I understand it includes some communities who were persecuted by both the Catholic and Protestant Churches. Can anybody explain the Trail of Blood theory? Is it reasonable to think that some ancient communities believed and worshiped God the way nowadays Baptist do? Thanks and God Bless everyone.
The “Trail of Blood” written by J.M. Carroll, was his skewed attempt to trace the history of the Baptists back to the time of Christ and thus prove that they were the original church. In order to do this, however, he had to attach the Baptists to various heretical groups down through history, many of which were condemned by the Catholic Church - some of which did not believe in the divinity of Christ, the Trinity, etc. In this work he promulgated the idea that those evil Roman Catholics purposefully persecuted the poor Baptists and deliberately burned all of their historical documents forcing them to hide in hovels until the reformation. There are so many historical errors, fallacies, and downright fabrications in his book, that it’s difficult to see how anyone with Western Civ. 101 under their belt could take it seriously.

Today you will find this view held largely by fringe Calvinist/KJV Onlyists such as the Landmarker Baptist movement most of whom are virulent anti-Catholic and anti-just-about- everyone-but themselves. Most mainstream Baptists reject this work as utter nonsense as rightly they should.
libcfl.com/
 
The Trail of blood is rejected by most honest Protestants, Baptists support the trail of blood with forged documents and historical revisionism, they like to MISQUOTE Cardinal Hosius, and even use fabricated quotes of his. They assume anabaptist refers to their sect, it does not anabaptist was ANYone, even gnostics who rebaptized people. They also like to quote the fabricated Waldensian Creed from around 1120, however this was a 19th century forgery, the Waldensian were just schimatic catholics and they believed at first just about all the things CAtholics do.bringyou.to/apologetics/num3.htm

This is similar if not the same as “Landmark baptists” both are historical dishonest movements that try to give themselves apostolic sucession, sometimes by relabeling Church Fathers as baptists.
 
Thanks everybody and especially Tmac1956 and BerhaneSelassie, your (name removed by moderator)ut help me to see more clearly.
My friends refuse to be called Protestant, and as an explanation they refer to the Trail of Blood. They also have a shelf full of a medium size encyclopedia, title: “a History of the Albigenses”.
I’ve always found that there’s something wrong with “we are not Protestant” and “there’s more to the Albigenses that meet the eye”. If they believe a lie, how can I help them to see the Truth? Should I even try? we are very good friends, we are like family.
 
Thanks everybody and especially Tmac1956 and BerhaneSelassie, your (name removed by moderator)ut help me to see more clearly.
My friends refuse to be called Protestant, and as an explanation they refer to the Trail of Blood. They also have a shelf full of a medium size encyclopedia, title: “a History of the Albigenses”.

I’ve always found that there’s something wrong with “we are not Protestant” and “there’s more to the Albigenses that meet the eye”. If they believe a lie, how can I help them to see the Truth? Should I even try? we are very good friends, we are like family.
Well, in my opinion you should try by asking this person to look at some sources outside of his/her orbit – perhaps offering to read a book recommended by your friend if in turn, he/she will read one that you recommend. There are many good titles out there, but one that I would recommend is:

“How the Catholic Church Built Western Civilization” by Thomas E. Woods, Jr. Ph.D.

While only a little over 200 pages, this work is fully sourced allowing your friend to check out its historical accuracy. Beyond that, there’s not much you can do but pray and keep praying. Please never give up on that.
 
Thanks everybody and especially Tmac1956 and BerhaneSelassie, your (name removed by moderator)ut help me to see more clearly.
My friends refuse to be called Protestant, and as an explanation they refer to the Trail of Blood. They also have a shelf full of a medium size encyclopedia, title: “a History of the Albigenses”.
I’ve always found that there’s something wrong with “we are not Protestant” and “there’s more to the Albigenses that meet the eye”. If they believe a lie, how can I help them to see the Truth? Should I even try? we are very good friends, we are like family.
Oh - one other item that you might present to your friend is a statement by the author Carroll himself years after writing Trail of Blood:

“Extensive graduate study and independent investigation of church history has, however, convinced [the author] that the view he once held so dear has not been, and cannot be, verified. On the contrary, surviving primary documents render the successionist view untenable. . . . Although free church groups in ancient and medieval times sometimes promoted doctrines and practices agreeable to modern Baptists, when judged by standards now acknowledged as baptistic, not one of them merits recognition as a Baptist church. Baptists arose in the 17th century in Holland and England. They are Protestants, heirs of the reformers. (Baptist Successionism: A Crucial Question in Baptist History [1994], 1–2)” catholic.com/thisrock/quickquestions/?qid=683

That really should give your friend a reason to look more closely at his beliefs.🙂
 
My friends are Baptist and believe in the theory of the Trail of Blood. They are passionate about researching the Baptist roots of Christianity. I don’t know much about the Trail of Blood, but I understand it includes some communities who were persecuted by both the Catholic and Protestant Churches. Can anybody explain the Trail of Blood theory? Is it reasonable to think that some ancient communities believed and worshiped God the way nowadays Baptist do? Thanks and God Bless everyone.
hello. if they want to study baptist history, it goes back to the anabaptist movement and the mennonites. their founder john smyth, at the end of his life attempted to get them back into the mennonite fold but failed. their founder believed they were in error. also john smyth denied the doctrine of original sin. most baptist have no clue of their history, so maybe this is a good thing they are studying it. keep us posted as to their progress plz, this should be interesting. on a side note, hopefully they are not tying themselves in with the albigenses movement. they advocated no marriage, because it was considered to be permanent and evil in their eyes. they did however advocate fornification, and homosexuality, as these were seen as temporal and good. God bless you and yours.🙂
 
Thank you all for your help. I had no idea that the same person who came up with the trail of blood theory later said that he was wrong. I need to study his book and help my friends to see the truth. Thank you again and God Bless You all.
 
The problem with the theory is that it links some very disperate heretical movements throughout history which have no link to each other, and which appeared in completely different parts of the world.
 
The problem with the theory is that it links some very disperate heretical movements throughout history which have no link to each other, and which appeared in completely different parts of the world.
It just shows how the historical argument, dispite all protests to the contrary, hold real weight.

It is one thing that Catholics and Orthodox can claim. No matter which side you take, you cannot deny that the other side was there.
 
Albigensians aka Cathars aka GNOSTICS, not to mention the Abigensians ALSO believed in transmigration of souls (that is, reincarnation!!!)
 
My friends are Baptist and believe in the theory of the Trail of Blood. They are passionate about researching the Baptist roots of Christianity. I don’t know much about the Trail of Blood, but I understand it includes some communities who were persecuted by both the Catholic and Protestant Churches. Can anybody explain the Trail of Blood theory? Is it reasonable to think that some ancient communities believed and worshiped God the way nowadays Baptist do? Thanks and God Bless everyone.
I read and believed that book as a Baptist. It got me thinking in ways that lead me eventually to the Catholic faith. Let me explain. This theory requires that there be a continuous line of “baptistic” believers from the Apostles unto this day. That is an important foundational principle that most Evangelicals and most Baptists lack. It is a remnant theory, but it is better than the typical Protestant who ignores the necessity of a continuous presence of the kingdom of heaven on earth.

Praise them for their principle. Question the facts. As I recollect they endorse just about every nut group that would oppose the Catholic Church. Novatians, Paulinists, Albigenses, Waldenses. In reality, Baptists are ordinarily closer to Catholics than some of these groups they endorse. Eventually, they have to say that the Catholic Church has misrepresented what these groups really believed. They have to take it on faith that the Albigenses, like Baptists, believed in marriage since every historical indication gives evidence that they thought that matter was evil and that human reproduction compounded the evil.

In my opinion, if you ever discuss it, you should be sure to give your approval to the principle…it is a Catholic one. Talk about how it is impossible that Christ’s visible presence should have vanished for even a short period. They just need to reevaluate the facts of the matter.

Regards,

Rory

PS: I studied at a Baptist Bible College before becoming a pastor, which I did for about seven years. While I was at school there were rumblings because the teacher of church history was accused of teaching too much about monks, and cardinals, and bishops. The students were wanting “Trails of Blood”…fundamental, Bible-believing, blood-bought, soul winning Baptists…even if they were called by a different name. The President of the College got up one Sunday night at church and talked about the matter. He assured us that the next semester things would be different. There would be a much stronger emphasis on people who believed like us.

I was pretty enthused when I scheduled to take that class the next semester. My enthusiasm waned though as it just seemed kind of dry with lists of names and people who didn’t seem peculiarly Baptist. The teacher wasn’t explaining how Ignatius of Antioch was a congregationalist, or how John Chrysostom taught that the Lord’s Supper was all symbolism, or how Augustine preached believer’s baptism. That is what we wanted and we weren’t getting it. I don’t remember what he did teach. I know what he didn’t teach. He didn’t teach Trails of Blood and a continuous line of Baptists like us going back through the centuries.

At one point about half way through the course, one of the more outspoken students simply spoke up in the middle of class and challenged our professor of history. “I thought we were going to be learning about people like us, ‘our bunch’, this semester.” The poor teacher, frustrated, beleaguered, threw up his hands, “I can’t”, he said, “It isn’t there.”
 
Albigensians aka Cathars aka GNOSTICS, not to mention the Abigensians ALSO believed in transmigration of souls (that is, reincarnation!!!)
Yep. Reincarnation is a common gnostic belief, as is the idea that having children is an act of evil.
 
My friends are Baptist and believe in the theory of the Trail of Blood. They are passionate about researching the Baptist roots of Christianity. I don’t know much about the Trail of Blood, but I understand it includes some communities who were persecuted by both the Catholic and Protestant Churches. Can anybody explain the Trail of Blood theory? Is it reasonable to think that some ancient communities believed and worshiped God the way nowadays Baptist do? Thanks and God Bless everyone.
Fr. Mitch fielded a question similar to this the other day on Catholic radio. My judgement of what he says is that the “Trail of Blood” folks don’t have a good grasp of history or heresy.

Here’s the link:
ewtn.com/vondemand/audio/resolve.asp?audiofile=ol_11182009.mp3

The question is at the 30:35 point of the show.
 
I read and believed that book as a Baptist. It got me thinking in ways that lead me eventually to the Catholic faith. Let me explain. This theory requires that there be a continuous line of “baptistic” believers from the Apostles unto this day. That is an important foundational principle that most Evangelicals and most Baptists lack. It is a remnant theory, but it is better than the typical Protestant who ignores the necessity of a continuous presence of the kingdom of heaven on earth.

Praise them for their principle. Question the facts. As I recollect they endorse just about every nut group that would oppose the Catholic Church. Novatians, Paulinists, Albigenses, Waldenses. In reality, Baptists are ordinarily closer to Catholics than some of these groups they endorse. Eventually, they have to say that the Catholic Church has misrepresented what these groups really believed. They have to take it on faith that the Albigenses, like Baptists, believed in marriage since every historical indication gives evidence that they thought that matter was evil and that human reproduction compounded the evil.

In my opinion, if you ever discuss it, you should be sure to give your approval to the principle…it is a Catholic one. Talk about how it is impossible that Christ’s visible presence should have vanished for even a short period. They just need to reevaluate the facts of the matter.

Regards,

Rory

PS: I studied at a Baptist Bible College before becoming a pastor, which I did for about seven years. While I was at school there were rumblings because the teacher of church history was accused of teaching too much about monks, and cardinals, and bishops. The students were wanting “Trails of Blood”…fundamental, Bible-believing, blood-bought, soul winning Baptists…even if they were called by a different name. The President of the College got up one Sunday night at church and talked about the matter. He assured us that the next semester things would be different. There would be a much stronger emphasis on people who believed like us.

I was pretty enthused when I scheduled to take that class the next semester. My enthusiasm waned though as it just seemed kind of dry with lists of names and people who didn’t seem peculiarly Baptist. The teacher wasn’t explaining how Ignatius of Antioch was a congregationalist, or how John Chrysostom taught that the Lord’s Supper was all symbolism, or how Augustine preached believer’s baptism. That is what we wanted and we weren’t getting it. I don’t remember what he did teach. I know what he didn’t teach. He didn’t teach Trails of Blood and a continuous line of Baptists like us going back through the centuries.

At one point about half way through the course, one of the more outspoken students simply spoke up in the middle of class and challenged our professor of history. “I thought we were going to be learning about people like us, ‘our bunch’, this semester.” The poor teacher, frustrated, beleaguered, threw up his hands, “I can’t”, he said, “It isn’t there.”
Thank you so much for sharing! You are describing exactly what is happening. They mentioned some groups who were persecuted by the Catholic Church and I tried to point out that maybe they were persecuted because they were heretics. Even though I have found 1 website dealing with the Albigense heresy, they refuse to consider it because it’s a Catholic source, therefore it has to be false. And by the way, they are from a family of Pastors and Missionaries (all of their kids attended Bob Jones U).
I don’t think that all the kids share the theory though. For sure the wife and husband and the wife’s mother do. Grandma even bought a laptop specifically to do some research about the Albigense. She is probably the most passionate about it.

I’m glad you answered this thread and I might need your advice on the best way to approach this… besides prayer.
Blessings, beafedor
 
Fr. Mitch fielded a question similar to this the other day on Catholic radio. My judgment of what he says is that the “Trail of Blood” folks don’t have a good grasp of history or heresy.

Here’s the link:
ewtn.com/vondemand/audio/resolve.asp?audiofile=ol_11182009.mp3

The question is at the 30:35 point of the show.
Thank you so much, I really don’t know where to turn to find information about this. I asked an apologist but they didn’t answer. I didn’t know that EWTN had done a radio show about it but I will surely listen to it.
 
Oh - one other item that you might present to your friend is a statement by the author Carroll himself years after writing Trail of Blood:

“Extensive graduate study and independent investigation of church history has, however, convinced [the author] that the view he once held so dear has not been, and cannot be, verified. On the contrary, surviving primary documents render the successionist view untenable. . . . Although free church groups in ancient and medieval times sometimes promoted doctrines and practices agreeable to modern Baptists, when judged by standards now acknowledged as baptistic, not one of them merits recognition as a Baptist church. Baptists arose in the 17th century in Holland and England. They are Protestants, heirs of the reformers. (Baptist Successionism: A Crucial Question in Baptist History [1994], 1–2)” catholic.com/thisrock/quickquestions/?qid=683

That really should give your friend a reason to look more closely at his beliefs.🙂
Thanks, I really appreciate your help here.
 
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