Trail of Blood and nowadays Baptists

[James_Least]

Getting back on track: The way I see it, if the Baptists don’t accept the “trail of blood,” or whatever you want to call it, they are necessarily admitting that they are simply a man-made sect manufactured by Smyth, Helwys, and Wightman (who was, interestingly, burned at the stake by the same King who commissioned their beloved King James Bible) in early 17th Century England.

Are the “Trail of Blood”/Landmark Baptists grasping at straws to try and come up with some sort of theory of apostolic succession? Yes. Does it make a whole lot of sense when brought under historical scrutiny? No. But there needs to be some explanation for them to square themselves with “the gates of Hell not prevailing against” the Church. The other alternative would be to do like the Mormons: Claim a “great apostacy,” and say that everyone was wrong until they came along, but they don’t seem to want to go that route.

---

Yes, to get back on track. The word Baptist is a catch-all like the word Christian. There are dozens of groups called Baptist. There is no Baptist Denomination as such. Mostly, because true Baptists are not Protestant. Yes there are definite groups that have headquarters and central controls. I hasten to point out that many churches called Baptist are fiercely independent and answer to no one outside their local body. This is not about the name of a church.

I have many Baptistic teachings in my heart. I have studied “Trail of Blood” on several occasions. This pamphlet represents a condensation of several lessons/sermons which were given by a Baptist Preacher named B.J.(?) Carroll, who died before the pamphlet was printed. Like any other man-made book, it is subject to error. Much of the information can be corroborated in other history books. The Cardinal Hosius discrepancy does not necessarily indicate intentional intellectual dishonesty, probably just failure to check all sources and addresses. Dan Rather had that problem. Dan is still a good man. There is some evidence that the reference to Hosius was at a different address. The reference to Hosius is not necessary to support the preponderence of evidence presented. This is not the only historical type document supporting some of the arguments. If the paradigm is the Catholic Encyclopedia, there will never be a preponderence. The court has been mostly kangaroos since before the Inquisitions. It matters not what the evidence might be.

Apostolic succession? No. Whatever happened to Holy Spirit succession–from Pentecost to today? Yes, another Comforter, to lead in all Truth. “Lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the age”. Jesus said that–to the First New Testament Church. He has kept His promise. We are still out here, “earnestly contending for the faith once, for all delivered unto the saints.” Now what?

Let God be found true, and every man a liar,

Peace,

James Least

 

[qui_est_ce]

Brainwashed indeed. I was born a Roman Catholic, went to Catholic School and Cathechism on Saturday and First Communion–all under Pius XII. It was a mortal sin to eat meat on Friday unless the meat was fish which was ok. Is it still a mortal sin? I can still recite all the prayers of the rosary. I learned a lot of good stuff from the nuns. We would eat our bag lunches in the library at Catholic School. I gazed in awe at all the old books on the shelves. I learned to read. I have read a lot of books in the past 58 years. I also learned you cannot believe everything you read–every author has a bias. There is only one infallible standard–the Word of God. I also learned: God is always faithful, men are not.

A deliverer of great wisdom? No. I have delivered the message. What you do with it is up to you. We are all without excuse.

Peace,

James Least

I will pray for you. You seem to be harboring a lot of resentment against the Catholic Church. I and many others have found great comfort in Holy Mother Church, in the Eucharchist, the Real Presence of our Lord Jesus Christ.

We are currently studying The Great Adventure Bible series by Jeff Cavins. We have just finished part I. Part I is an 8 week session that focuses on the first 5 books of the Bible. Over and over the Israelites had problems with trusting God, with obeying God, with his Authority on Earth. Moses was God’s Authority. They questioned Moses and grumbled against him. Even Miriam and Aaron were jealous of their brother and claimed God spoke through them also. Miriam was punished for her rebellion by becoming snow white with leprosy. Aaron, in spite of his failings (like Peter) was chosen by God to be the line from which the Levitical priesthood descended. Moses was a humble sinner, yet he was chosen by God as His representative on Earth. Moses’ successor was Joshua.

This story so much reminds me of those who rebel against the Church, God’s Kingdom on Earth. We fail to trust God’s promise that He will be with us till the end of time. Instead, we each retreat into our own, “God is speaking through me, and he is telling me something different than His Authority on Earth.”

God bless you James,

 

[qui_est_ce]

It is the disobedience which is the sin. Disobedience comes from not trusting in God’s promise and Authority. God made a Covenant with us at the Last Supper. He gave us His body and his blood, the blood of the New Covenant.
[/quote]

 

[James_Least]

Outstanding double speak.

I guess we had a different catechism in South Dakota in 1952–a completely different regime for sure… Meat on Friday=mortal sin is still a permanent part of my Read Only Memory. It is in the RAM too–as vivid as the Hail Mary. This is another facet of the Chameleon Religion Brainwash–forever changing, never coming to a knowledge of The Truth that makes one free.

Free from the law of sin and death–O happy condition.

Peace,

James Least
[/quote]

 

[humble_maid]

I will pray for you. You seem to be harboring a lot of resentment against the Catholic Church. I and many others have found great comfort in Holy Mother Church, in the Eucharchist, the Real Presence of our Lord Jesus Christ.

We are currently studying The Great Adventure Bible series by Jeff Cavins. We have just finished part I. Part I is an 8 week session that focuses on the first 5 books of the Bible. Over and over the Israelites had problems with trusting God, with obeying God, with his Authority on Earth. Moses was God’s Authority. They questioned Moses and grumbled against him. Even Miriam and Aaron were jealous of their brother and claimed God spoke through them also. Miriam was punished for her rebellion by becoming snow white with leprosy. Aaron, in spite of his failings (like Peter) was chosen by God to be the line from which the Levitical priesthood descended. Moses was a humble sinner, yet he was chosen by God as His representative on Earth. Moses’ successor was Joshua.

This story so much reminds me of those who rebel against the Church, God’s Kingdom on Earth. We fail to trust God’s promise that He will be with us till the end of time. Instead, we each retreat into our own, “God is speaking through me, and he is telling me something different than His Authority on Earth.”

God bless you James,

Thank you my catholic sister for the analogy. Well done. God Bless you.

P.S. Are these bible studies done in church; may you provide more info on the way these classes are set up and the book materials being used?

 

[qui_est_ce]

Thank you my catholic sister for the analogy. Well done. God Bless you.

P.S. Are these bible studies done in church; may you provide more info on the way these classes are set up and the book materials being used?

There are many. Ours is done through our parish, Adult Faith Formation. Check with your Archdiocese.

God bless you and all who are seeking Truth. :bowdown::bowdown:

 

[qui_est_ce]

Outstanding double speak.

I guess we had a different catechism in South Dakota in 1952–a completely different regime for sure… Meat on Friday=mortal sin is still a permanent part of my Read Only Memory. It is in the RAM too–as vivid as the Hail Mary. This is another facet of the Chameleon Religion Brainwash–forever changing, never coming to a knowledge of The Truth that makes one free.

Free from the law of sin and death–O happy condition.

Peace,

James Least

Dear James,
I’m sorry you feel the Church seems forever changing to you. Did you read my post about obedience?

I also wanted to address your advice about surfing for information. I came to CAF for faith building and discussion. I have found many diverse views here that have caused me to study my faith tradition more closely. CAF is a discussion forum. We interact. We respond. We dispute.

In surfing, I have found many disingenuous sites. There are virulent anti-Catholic sites that falsely portray Catholic Teaching. There are virulent anti-Protestant sites as well. The thing I have come to admire about CAF is that misinformation is quickly addressed.

The Church is my rock and foundation, with Jesus Christ as her cornerstone.

God bless you, James, for having the courage to come here and share your faith.

 

[tmac1956]

Whence cometh this blog? Sorry, for you–I see the www as a tremendous library of the world. All the bibles are available in dozens of languages. What an aid to study this is!!

More rattling: There is scripture which speaks of The Judgement Seat(Bema) of Christ. This is not the White throne judgement. There are two judgements and two deaths. God’s children are not judged with the lost. His children only die once–physical death. The lost die twice: once physically, the second when they go to Hell forever-separated from God.
Peace,

James Least

The lost do not die - they continue forever in Hell. You have something of a contradiction here don’t you?

 

[tmac1956]

Religious powers that be: Catholicism East and West do not agree on a very basic point: authority. The East does not recognize the papacy as having authority over them. This schism is unrepaired for 1000 years so far. This raises a couple of obvious questions: Which one is right?

About papal authority? Obviously that would the Western Church.

Both cannot be right [about papal authority] Could both be wrong?

No - both are not wrong. Having a differnce of authority does not invalidate the fact that the Eastern Church has validly ordained priests and valid sacraments - all seven of them. It’s just a family feud. We’ll eventually work it out.

This does not make for good evangelism folks.

Are you attempting to evangelize here? That is a violation of forum rules you know!

I think I may have just excommunicated myself. I do not exist anyway–the marriage from whence I came was annulled, by the Vatican–6 mos. after I was born.

I know my name is written in the Lamb’s book of life–that is all that really matters.

I agree that its the most important thing; but, it’s not the only thing is it? We still have work to do here in this life – at least I do anyway.

Pax

 

[James_Least]

The lost do not die - they continue forever in Hell. You have something of a contradiction here don’t you?

Run “second death” though a Bible concordance. Death is separation–from God, physically and spiritually.

Peace,

James Least

 

[tmac1956]

Run “second death” though a Bible concordance. Death is separation–from God, physically and spiritually.

Peace,

James Least

The soul never ceases to exist – even in hell.

Mark 9:43-45 (King James Version)

43And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:

**44Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. **

45And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:

Pax!

 

[qui_est_ce]

I do not exist anyway–the marriage from whence I came was annulled, by the Vatican–6 mos. after I was born. I know my name is written in the Lamb’s book of life–that is all that really matters.
tmac1956;6008551:

Yes, James is confused about what an annulment means, as he is about many Catholic teachings. It’s a good thing he is here, so he can learn the Truth. :bowdown::bowdown:

 

[KathleenGee]

James,

In the Catholic Church, just because your parents’ marriage was anulled, doesn’t make you The Least. Their relationship has no bearing on you.

Awhile back, I recall someone on the Forum here asking about that very same situation regarding the children of annulled marriages…

When you are baptized, you are a new creation. You were baptized into the Catholic Church and you cannot wash your Catholic baptism away. Your baptism was the rite that brought you into Christianity – irregardless of your present association!

Sooooooo ---- You are a new creation ----- because of your Catholic baptism!!

I also welcome you to the Catholic Answers Forum. Stay with it and find out more about your Catholic roots.

Catholics share the same faith walk as you do, but there is so so much more to your faith — living it within in the Church as well.

Sorry…you were at the tail end of the old ways…I was as well. The Holy Spirit is always with us…those were traditions with the small ‘t’…The Church is in the truth when it professes faith in the fullness of the creed and holds the same faith, pope and bishops in union with the fullness of understanding of Scripture of its full content…not just parts…same with Church laws…mores and conditions change.

The church is in constant renewal and reform…God is the one who judges our hearts and in those times, when old ways were no longer bringing the same fruit, people were faithful but also searching for renewal…

When the changes of Vatican II came about, I adopted to it like a fish to water....but over the years, things became too lax.  I recovered my past when I drew on traditions of fasting and the Latin Mass, because before, I was unable to freely connect to my faith as a child due to the particular environment of that school.  (I must also add that other Catholic schools in the same city with their sisters were not having the same practices.  The school I had gone to with abusive nuns was shut down.)   Vatican II helped remove any unhealthy practices in their convents.  It was time.

I have met many good priests and sisters who reflect the Word of God and the life of Jesus. A number of years ago, I ran into the sister at the hospital who had particularly abused me. She said she was into social work. This summer I met a sister who lived in that community a long time ago. She said they couldn’t even look at each other in the convent…so you see, the whole community was labeled by the mother superior and a few others that I had experienced.

Don’t freeze up on images and experiences of the past that no longer exist.

Stay with us and renew the roots of your Catholicism through your Baptism with the truth.

From James the Least, you will become James Recovered and James Renewed!

 

[James_Least]

Yes, James is confused about what an annulment means, as he is about many Catholic teachings. It’s a good thing he is here, so he can learn the Truth. :bowdown::bowdown:

Annulment: as if it never happened. One of the criteria used to be: no consummation. I am living proof that being not the case.

Peace,

James Least

 

[KathleenGee]

Oh dear…

Some thing did happen and it was good and it was you.

You know, here is a case that not only do you not understand the faith, but also the good person you are.

I am going to do some researching, beginning at the forum in another topic.

Hang in there.

You are legitimate, you were created of two people, who for whatever reason, did not persevere in marriage…may be one was not as mature or competent, or well intended to raise you Catholic. What they did or didn’t do, does not put a value on you, an innocent.

Please pray to the Holy Spirit now to release you of any false judgment of yourself and your right to exist and to live a full and worthy life. Please. Those thoughts and emotions are not the work of the Lord in your soul …

 

[qui_est_ce]

Annulment: as if it never happened. One of the criteria used to be: no consummation. I am living proof that being not the case.

Peace,

James Least

What do you think about what Kathleen posted?

A:bowdown::bowdownd bless.

 

[KathleenGee]

Back…

Parishes are relunctant to baptize children if the parents do not have any intent to raise them in the faith…that makes sense.

So the baptism is put off until either godparents step in and take responsibility for nurturing the child’s faith, or the baptism is put off until the child maturely wants it.

I heard of stories in Catholic school where there were children who found out about the Catholic faith who wanted to be baptized and had great grace that their parents were not living right not believing in the Lord.

It is none of my business to ask you any personal questions about your baptism. There are those pastors who did allow the parent to have their child baptized after the anullment if the parent was going to seriously raise the child Catholic. The fact that you were raised in a Catholic school verifies your parent was serious and took their faith to heart…but you also missed your other parent, it was a fracture…and so you were more vulnerable…like I was when my mother had her breakdown and I was being abused in Catholic school…it hurt me alot more…perhaps even more than the perpetrators intended because I didn’t have my mother fully there with me.

You exist, and so you are…God’s child. And you most likely had your baptism in a Catholic church…note we renew our baptismal promises during Easter time, and personally remember the saving waters of Jesus when we bless ourselves with holy water coming in to church. Isn’t that a beautiful practice of belonging to a church???

 

[qui_est_ce]

Back…

You exist, and so you are…God’s child. And you most likely had your baptism in a Catholic church…note we renew our baptismal promises during Easter time, and personally remember the saving waters of Jesus when we bless ourselves with holy water coming in to church. Isn’t that a beautiful practice of belonging to a church???

Let me first say I am so sorry about your mother and the abuse you suffered. :hug1:You are so blessed to have found healing in our Holy Mother Church. :grouphug:
Beautiful! And we are born again in Baptism. We are washed clean and become children of God.

From the lips of Jesus

[BIBLEDRB]john 3:3-7[/BIBLEDRB]:heaven::harp:

 

[KathleenGee]

Thank you…yes, we must claim our new life not on our human progeny but on the new life of Jesus Christ…

If only the fundamentalists could see that we experience the same saving power of Jesus…but we have our church, our ancient liturgy, our 7 sacraments, the communion of saints, the liturgical year and practices…

But in the Church, we also have to learn on our own what to look at and observe, and where to keep our eyes and ears and souls focused when scandal and disorder comes in…as a bishop told me, unity is fragile.

Do you know about ‘Rome of the West’? I receive ongoing sharings from a man in St. Louis who has all these photos of that area, the Catholic architectural preserved, and now also the home of the Hebrew Catholics?

My uncle lived there and I would like to go there some day to visit. Lucky you!

 

[qui_est_ce]

Do you know about ‘Rome of the West’? I receive ongoing sharings from a man in St. Louis who has all these photos of that area, the Catholic architectural preserved, and now also the home of the Hebrew Catholics?

My uncle lived there and I would like to go there some day to visit. Lucky you!

We have Rosalind Moss here, who started the Daughters of Mary, Hope of Israel’s Hope. The parish is only about a mile from where I live!

Never heard of the Rome of the West, but St. Louis definitely is blessed with beautiful Catholic architecture. We have daily Latin mass at a beautiful cathedral, St. Francis de Sales Oratory. We like to say there is a church on every corner here in the city.

In addition, we have been blessed to have had Archbishop Burke, and now Archbishop Robert Carlson.

This is a bit off topic. PM me if you want any further info.

Wonder what happened to James?

God bless! :bowdown::bowdown: