I am curious how you arrive at the conclusion that it is downright blasphemous to use grape juice rather than wine for Communion. Is it something to do with not being alcohol or just the fact that Jesus used wine at the Last Supper?
I am glad to hear you say it is not blasphemous. Would you share what makes it really, really, really wrong? I would like to gain an understanding of what makes it wrong.
I totally appreciate your honesty. Few people are willing to admit this is happening. I have a hard time understanding why the Church/priests participate in insincerity. It is difficult for me to accept that Jesus instituted a rubber stamp factory producing Christians by going through programmed actions.
I suspect that some Catholics, and some Protestants, who seek marriage are not fully committed Christians. I can’t imagine that the screening/prep process for Catholics is any weaker than for Protestants. We live in a secularized, anti-family culture and clergy on both sides are doing the best they can with young adults who grew up in an anti Christian media culture.
I know Catholicism is not a once-for-all, now i’m saved thing like OSAS (which by the way I do not subscribe to either) however I do rub shoulders with a lot of Catholics and in my experience the vast majority explain it as “I was baptized a Catholic so now I guess am a Christian however I don’t bother with all that religious stuff.”Wannano:
I suspect that some Catholics, and some Protestants, who seek marriage are not fully committed Christians. I can’t imagine that the screening/prep process for Catholics is any weaker than for Protestants. We live in a secularized, anti-family culture and clergy on both sides are doing the best they can with young adults who grew up in an anti Christian media culture.
If the Catholic Church required only the perfect go up for the Body and Blood of Christ, there would be no communion, or any sacrament. My faith is weaker than it should be, but it is stronger because of the grace of the sacraments. Many couples who had only a limited faith when they got married, gradually grew that faith through mutual support, seeing God’s hand in child birth, and relatives and friends who still do go to church (but ultimately through God’s “knocking on the door”).
Catholicism isn’t a once-for-all, now I’m saved, thing. That doesn’t mean we are programmed like robots, we have free will. Some married people respond to God’s grace. Some don’t. But God still keeps knocking, the Church tries in many ways, including keeping that priest in the confessional. It is no rubber stamp factory, it is like nurturing a flower. The Church is a field hospital for sinners.
Forgive me if I am being too bold but from what I understand about the Catholic Eucharist is that before anyone partakes the Liturgy provides a corporate asking of God to forgive the sins of those present which does away with the Venial sins of the people. Providing one does not have the stain of a mortal sin on his soul, does not the corporate forgiveness put everyone in a state of “perfection” before they go up for the Body and Blood of Christ?Wannano:
If the Catholic Church required only the perfect go up for the Body and Blood of Christ, there would be no communion, or any sacrament.
I just want to focus on the bolded words. “Perfection” can have 2 meanings. In a way, all sincere, currently practicing Christians are in an ongoing “state of perfection” in the sense of trying to respond to God’s grace, following the road of conversion. A process.commenter:
Forgive me if I am being too bold but from what I understand about the Catholic Eucharist is that before anyone partakes the Liturgy provides a corporate asking of God to forgive the sins of those present which does away with the Venial sins of the people. Providing one does not have the stain of a mortal sin on his soul, does not the corporate forgiveness put everyone in a state of “perfection” before they go up for the Body and Blood of Christ?Wannano:
If the Catholic Church required only the perfect go up for the Body and Blood of Christ, there would be no communion, or any sacrament.
I like your reply. In regards to the Liturgy, you have given me a new perspective to consider. I do see what you are saying and if all present see themselves as individual soil then there is merit to the practice. I really wonder though, and I have seen it substantiated here at CAF, if a lot of people don’t just attend to meet their Mass obligations and participate in the ritualistic format of asking for God’s forgiveness in a blanket sort of way that covers the Venial sins of all present without really considering if they need to become different soil.Wannano:
I just want to focus on the bolded words. “Perfection” can have 2 meanings. In a way, all sincere, currently practicing Christians are in an ongoing “state of perfection” in the sense of trying to respond to God’s grace, following the road of conversion. A process.commenter:
Forgive me if I am being too bold but from what I understand about the Catholic Eucharist is that before anyone partakes the Liturgy provides a corporate asking of God to forgive the sins of those present which does away with the Venial sins of the people. Providing one does not have the stain of a mortal sin on his soul, does not the corporate forgiveness put everyone in a state of “perfection” before they go up for the Body and Blood of Christ?Wannano:
If the Catholic Church required only the perfect go up for the Body and Blood of Christ, there would be no communion, or any sacrament.
In another sense, it means those who are already, fully perfected; in Heaven.
The liturgy is a little more complicated. It is not a “corporate” forgiveness for all who happen to be present. I suppose some are sorry at that point. Maybe others not. But we all have (and currently are) falling short. It also isn’t a “corporate” gospel reading. Only individuals are present. The seed is falling on some fertile soil, some thorny soil. I personally have been both kinds of soils.
Just a caution here…Protestants, especially in North America, seem fixated on terms like “obligations” and ritual as if those are bad; the opposite of holy. Supposedly “spontaneous” is more spiritual, as opposed to man made formats.
You raise good points.Wannano:
Just a caution here…Protestants, especially in North America, seem fixated on terms like “obligations” and ritual as if those are bad; the opposite of holy. Supposedly “spontaneous” is more spiritual, as opposed to man made formats.
I am just asking you to consider this as, perhaps, a Protestant, especially American bias; a limitation.
Jesus warned against empty rituals, but he honored and appreciated some, at least (like the Seder ritual).
As a married man, I might be tempted to be more “spontaneous” in my love life, romancing with other ladies as opportunity arises. But sometimes my “obligations” caution me to stay on the straight and narrow. The best reason to avoid drinking and driving is because it is wrong. But a health fear of the policeman, while it is only second best reason, sometimes helps keep people safe when they are tempted to drift. So too with the “Mass obligation”.
Ever hear the phrase to be deep in history is to cease being a Protestant?
Continued