"Trail of Blood" Baptist

[ReformedProtestant]

Historically speaking, John the Baptist did not start the Baptist “religion”, nor “churches”. There is no references properly referenced in history, of that happening.

historically speaking, references properly referenced, shows John Smyth in the 16th century beginning that sect.

I am not disagreeing with you on John the Baptist… I was being sarcastic.

And you are also correct about John Smyth, although Smyth joined the “Anabaptists” and became a Mennonite. His former colleague, Thomas Helwys went back to England and began the General Baptist movement. However, the Baptists today that stem from these “General Baptists” are the Free Will Baptists and some Independent Baptists.

The largest Baptist denomination in the US, the Southern Baptist Convention, stemmed from the Particular Baptists who were unrelated to John Smyth. The Particular Baptists emerged from a Puritan-Separatist church in London. It is often referred to as the JLJ Church, using the initials of three of its early pastors. If interested, this link provides more detail.
http://www.baptisthistory.org/baptistorigins/baptistbeginnings.html

Baptist historians will argue their view of baptism from early church history. They will often cite Justin Martyr. In his First Apology, he argued clearly that baptism is different from physical birth in that it is done with knowledge and assent as opposed to the ignorance of infancy. They will cite Aristides, as he used one’s faith as the basis for inclusion in the Christian community rather than one’s status as a child of believers. They will argue that Hippolytus and the Didache are consistent with credo-baptism, but do not explicitly defend it. However, they will say that during the 3rd century, baptism and regeneration became conflated, and as a result, you begin to see the baptism of dying children. Third century tombstones demonstrate this… And then after Augustine, paedo-baptism predominates until the English Reformation.

 

[steve-b]

steve-b:

Historically speaking, John the Baptist did not start the Baptist “religion”, nor “churches”. There is no references properly referenced in history, of that happening.

historically speaking, references properly referenced, shows John Smyth in the 16th century beginning that sect.

I am not disagreeing with you on John the Baptist… I was being sarcastic.

OK

steve-b:

Historically speaking, John the Baptist did not start the Baptist “religion”, nor “churches”. There is no references properly referenced in history, of that happening.

historically speaking, references properly referenced, shows John Smyth in the 16th century beginning that sect.

I am not disagreeing with you on John the Baptist… I was being sarcastic.

And you are also correct about John Smyth, although Smyth joined the “Anabaptists” and became a Mennonite. His former colleague, Thomas Helwys went back to England and began the General Baptist movement. However, the Baptists today that stem from these “General Baptists” are the Free Will Baptists and some Independent Baptists.

The largest Baptist denomination in the US, the Southern Baptist Convention, stemmed from the Particular Baptists who were unrelated to John Smyth. The Particular Baptists emerged from a Puritan-Separatist church in London. It is often referred to as the JLJ Church, using the initials of three of its early pastors. If interested, this link provides more detail.
Baptist Beginnings – Baptist History and Heritage Society

Baptist historians will argue their view of baptism from early church history. They will often cite Justin Martyr. In his First Apology, he argued clearly that baptism is different from physical birth in that it is done with knowledge and assent as opposed to the ignorance of infancy. They will cite Aristides, as he used one’s faith as the basis for inclusion in the Christian community rather than one’s status as a child of believers. They will argue that Hippolytus and the Didache are consistent with credo-baptism, but do not explicitly defend it. However, they will say that during the 3rd century, baptism and regeneration became conflated, and as a result, you begin to see the baptism of dying children. Third century tombstones demonstrate this… And then after Augustine, paedo-baptism predominates until the English Reformation.

Thanks for the link.

If interested,
Here’s how the Church looked at this sacrament, from the beginning (all linked) http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/02258b.htm

each category is internally linked
Example: “Institution of the Sacrament” http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/02258b.htm#v
or whatever category you wish to start with.

 

[Vonsalza]

Baptist historians will argue their view of baptism from early church history. They will often cite Justin Martyr. In his First Apology, he argued clearly that baptism is different from physical birth in that it is done with knowledge and assent as opposed to the ignorance of infancy.

I’ll stick with Justin on the basis that during my time with the Baptist seminarians, this was really the greatest and best source that seemed to affirm credo-baptism from “the early Church”.

To which a Catholic would reply - of course!

Justin wrote his first apology only half-a-century after the last texts of the NT itself were being authored (and centuries still before they were to be canonized). The vast, vast majority of his contemporary believers would not have been born in Christian households. In short, Christianity was still “new”. The multi-generational Christian household thus newer still…

Catholics certainly profess to believe in the baptism of the new believer. They just don’t think that’s the only time it can be done. Irenaeus, a contemporary of Justin Martyr, seemed to support baptizing an infant a few days after birth.

Pleasure to read the musings of a Reformed Protestant.

I myself was a Reformed Baptist before I swam the Tiber. Cheers.

 

[ReformedProtestant]

Pleasure to read the musings of a Reformed Protestant.

I myself was a Reformed Baptist before I swam the Tiber. Cheers.

:winkleasure to meet you on here. Thanks for providing your perspective.

 

[ReformedProtestant]

Thanks for the link. It leads me to ask another question, which I’ll post in a new thread.

 

[steve-b]

Thanks for the link. It leads me to ask another question, which I’ll post in a new thread.

When you create a new thread, please let me know.

 

[ReformedProtestant]

I just did. It refers to the Council of Trent reference in the link you provided. Thanks!

 

[ReformedProtestant]

I’d be interested in knowing what is was like for you to swim the Tiber in that direction? Were you raised Protestant? Catholic? or non religious? Potentially, friendships and family can be very much affected when one swims the Tiber in either direction.

 

[Vonsalza]

I’d be interested in knowing what is was like for you to swim the Tiber in that direction? Were you raised Protestant? Catholic? or non religious? Potentially, friendships and family can be very much affected when one swims the Tiber in either direction.

Oh yeah, the wife still isn’t a huge fan. But a la Luther, “I can do no other” if I think it’s true.

I was raised second-wave evangelical in an independent baptist church that paid dues to the SBC so our youth could attend their colleges for the reduced rate. I attended secular university, but a local program allowed students to take classes at the nearby baptist seminary, which is where a lot of my friends went anyway. So I did that. Even briefly considered becoming a full-blown seminarian! (One sememster I took more classes at the seminary than I did at my home school).

So I attended more classes there than I should, read all of the books my seminary pals read and went to any hot-topic lecture I could. I was present enough that the president of the seminary even knew my name. It was during this time that I fell in love with reformed theology and became a full 5-point Calvinist (much to the chagrin of my home church which was adamantly free-will baptist).

But as time when on and the zealous heat of youth cooled, I began to see the flaws of election; particularly as Calvin presented it. I then began to see the serious structural flaws of evangelicalism on the whole. It seemed to me (and still does) that if “my bible and me, in the Spirit” can generate so. many. competing and conflicting “truths”, then it was bankrupt as a primary methodology for learning about God. The results were not reliable nor consistent from person to person.

So I flirted with atheism for a few years while always asking myself “what is the true church?” and “does it/could it even exist?”

I began to focus on the idea that the church, if extant, couldn’t fail. Not even temporarily. Christ explicitly said so in Matthew. So if the true church existed, then it was observable from the 1st century to the present. This leaves only 2 real, defensible options; Catholicism or Orthodoxy. Unsurprisingly, they’re the two biggest groups in Christianity, together accounting for roughly 2/3 to 3/4 of the Christians walking around on this globe.

I had to get my head around the theology, but I had the capacity to do that, so no biggie. The best part about it though was the realization that “the truth” was not “up to me”. After studying theology for decades, that was so, so liberating.

This is getting long. Cutting it here. Ask any follow-up you please.

 

[Wannano]

ReformedProtestant:

I’d be interested in knowing what is was like for you to swim the Tiber in that direction? Were you raised Protestant? Catholic? or non religious? Potentially, friendships and family can be very much affected when one swims the Tiber in either direction.

But as time when on and the zealous heat of youth cooled, I began to see the flaws of election; particularly as Calvin presented it. I then began to see the serious structural flaws of evangelicalism on the whole. It seemed to me (and still does) that if “my bible and me, in the Spirit” can generate so. many. competing and conflicting “truths”, then it was bankrupt as a primary methodology for learning about God. The results were not reliable nor consistent from person to person.

I see a parallel here to Protestants trashing the CC as a whole because of the evil actions of individuals within the Church.

 

[DaveBj]

I just did. It refers to the Council of Trent reference in the link you provided. Thanks!

Could you provide a link to your new thread – I couldn’t find it. Please and thank you very much.

D

 

[ReformedProtestant]

Could you provide a link to your new thread – I couldn’t find it. Please and thank you very much.

D

How does the Roman Catholic Church View Baptized Protestants? Heretics? or Separated Brethren? Non-Catholic Religions

This is an honest question… I am aware that the Council of Trent anathematized the doctrines of the Protestant Reformation. My understanding of being anathematized is to be damned. Is my understanding incorrect? If so, what does it mean? Related to the above… Does the Roman Catholic Church believe the Protestant Reformers are in hell? in purgatory? in heaven? I had assumed that according to Trent, the RCC believes the Protestant Reformers are in hell or suffering immensely in purgatory. How…

 

[Vonsalza]

I see a parallel here to Protestants trashing the CC as a whole because of the evil actions of individuals within the Church.

Oh yeah. I don’t think anyone ever became Catholic because the people in the Church were perfect.

Saintly men they be; but still men. As such, they have the same weaknesses we’ve had since Adam took a bite of the fruit Eve handed him.

In the same vein, I’ve known of plenty of pastors in my old Baptist faith that embezzled this, slept with that and so on. The lack of unity in Protestantism serves as a good thing in these examples because it makes it so easy to disassociate from the fallen preacher.

I’m Catholic because it’s The Church. Or at least I can make a better argument for it than I can absolutely any others.
It encounters (and will continue to encounter) the same kinds of abuses we read about when “we” were Old Testament Jews because it still contains people. And people will sin.

$0.02

 

[Vonsalza]

I guess my ultimate point there was that I was able to get past the minority of bad actors in the history of Catholicism because they don’t display a “Catholic” problem. They display a human problem.

We find it in absolutely every other Christian faith with a sizable population.

Rationalist that I try to be, if a factor is present in all compared systems, then it is eliminated as a basis of comparison because no distinction can be found using it.

$0.04

 

[thephilosopher6]

Justin Martyr also wasn’t giving any extent theological treatise, he was simply defending the rituals of the Christian faith. There is no reason we should draw any conclusion regarding infant baptism in what he attempts to defend in chapter 61 of his apology. Justin does actually hint at infant baptism in his First Apology,

"And both men and women who have been Christ’s disciples since infancy, remain pure, and at the age of sixty or seventy years …” (First Apology, Chapter 15, Justin Martyr, 160 A.D)

Justin writes of baptism,

“there is no other way [to obtain God’s promises] than this-to become acquainted with Christ, to be washed in the fountain spoken of by Isaiah for the remission of sins, and for the remainder, to live sinless lives.” (Justin Martyr, Dialogue With Trypho, Chapter 44, 155 A.D)

as well as just before this comparing it to circumcision,

“And we, who have approached God through Him (Christ), have received not carnal, but spiritual circumcision, which Enoch and those like him observed. And we have received it through baptism, since we were sinners, by God’s mercy; and all men may equally obtain it.” (Justin Martyr, Dialogue With Trypho, Chapter 43, 155 A.D)

This all alludes to infant baptism.

That’s how I’d respond.

 

[Vonsalza]

Superb observations.

I’m actually going to take note of these.

 

[Kei]

And also Baptism is NOT conflated later with regeneration bit is conflated in the Bible like @ReformedProtestant says, a la
Whereunto baptism being of the like form, now saveth you also: not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the examination of a good conscience towards God by the resurrection of Jesus Christ.

 

[tgGodsway]

I agree ReformedProtestant,

Besides, if we want to go searching for sinners, we can find them in every Christian circle, even the Roman Catholic circle.

I think Roman Catholics AND Protestants will be surprised in heaven. … no one will be addressing themselves as, "I’m Roman Catholic!.. I’m Protestant… I’m Evangelical… "

It won’t happen. God Himself will not allow such fleshly thinking within His family when we all stand before Him on that great Day.