Transforming the Catholic-Jewish Relationship

[Maranatha]

Transforming a Relationship: On the 40th Anniversary of Nostra Aetate

Looking Back, Looking Ahead

In celebrating the 40th anniversary of Nostra Aetate, the landmark Vatican document that launched a historic new positive dialogue between the Catholic Church and the Jewish people, the Anti-Defamation League has assembled an impressive series of essays and reflections analyzing the history this groundbreaking event and its profound impact on Catholic-Jewish relations. This report features articles from some of the world’s leading Catholic and Jewish interfaith experts on the meaning and future of Nostra Aetate.

The report also for the first time compiles in one place some of the most important recent Vatican documents concerning its new relationship with Jews and Judaism
more

 

[JOHNYJ]

What goes on at the top doesn’t always effect the bottom.
Last years attempts by jewish organisations including the ADL. to destroy the movie " THE PASSION OF THE CHRIST " was a miserable failure,as it deserved to be. The lies spread about the movie only angered christians and got more people to see it.It also showed how far jewish organisations would go to stop anything that criticised jews,in any way.

 

[stillsmallvoice]

Hi all!

I just saw this on the Reuters wire:

Pope Says Committed to Good Relations With Jews

by Phillip Pullella

Pope Benedict assured the world’s Jews on Thursday that he and the Vatican were irrevocably committed to good Catholic-Jewish relations and to never forgetting the Holocaust.

The Pope spoke for the 40th anniversary celebrations of a Second Vatican Council document called “Nostra Aetate” (In Our Time) that revolutionized relations by repudiating the concept of continuing collective Jewish guilt for the death of Christ.

“This anniversary gives us abundant reason to express gratitude to almighty God …” he said in a message to Catholic and Jewish leaders commemorating the anniversary in Rome.

.

Link: news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20051027/wl_nm/pope_jews_dc_1



See also forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?p=796888&highlight=Benedict#post796888 & forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?p=985362&highlight=Benedict#post985362.

Be well!

ssv

 

[stillsmallvoice]

Hi all!

See Rabbi David Rosen’s Oct. 27 speech in Rome on Nostra Aetate", Forty Years After Vatican II. Present & Future Perspectives at ajc.org/site/apps/nl/content3.asp?c=ijITI2PHKoG&b=846735&ct=1548835.

Be well!

ssv

 

[bapcathluth]

Thank you, SSV. This was long, but worth the time. It again highlights for me how Pope John Paul II was a blessed man, and how he helped heal Catholic-Jewish relations.

 

[bones_IV]

I believe that, we are all spiritual semites, from Pius XI’s wrote this in Mit Brennender Sorge, written by the hand of Cardinal Pacelli.

 

[stillsmallvoice]

Hi all!

This is from today’s Ha’aretz:

KATSAV MAKES LANDMARK VISIT TO VATICAN FOR TALKS WITH POPE

by By Shmuel Rosner, Haaretz Correspondent, and The Associated Press

President Moshe Katsav traveled to the Vatican on Thursday for talks with Pope Benedict XVI, marking the first official visit to the Vatican by an Israeli head of state.

At the end of their 25-minute private meeting in the Pope’s library, Katsav presented Benedict with framed photos of recently discovered mosaics that are believed to be from the Holy Land’s oldest church.

Haaretz daily - Info & News Magazine 2020 -

Benedict, for his part, gave the president a framed and signed copy of the Vatican’s landmark 1965 document “Nostra Aetate,” which revolutionized the Catholic Church’s relations with Jews.

.

Link: haaretzdaily.com/hasen/spages/646810.html

Be well!

ssv

 

[stillsmallvoice]

Hi all!

Hot off the AP wire:

POPE CONCERNED ABOUT FRESH ANTI-SEMITISM

By Frances D’emilo, Associated Press Writer

Mon Jan 16, 3:02 PM ET

Pope Benedict XVI, meeting with Rome’s chief rabbi Monday, expressed pain and worry over outbreaks of anti-Semitism in the world and called on Jews and Christians to wage a united battle against hate.

Waves of violence and vandalism targeting Jews have hit Europe in the past few years. Last week, worshippers in a Moscow synagogue were attacked by a man with a knife.

Benedict did not mention specific occurrences of anti-Semitism in his speech to greet Rabbi Riccardo Di Segni in an audience at the Vatican.

.

Link: news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060116/ap_on_re_eu/vatican_anti_semitism_1

Photo: us.news3.yimg.com/us.i2.yimg.com/p/ap/20060116/capt.rom10601161544.vatican_anti_semitism_rom106.jpg?

Be well!

ssv

 

[tonyq]

stillsmallvoice:

Hi all!
This is from today’s Ha’aretz:

This is nice and I am all in favor of better relations between Catholics and Jews. However, it looks to me like it can only go so far and that the theological divisions are really too great. For example, take a look at:
noahide.com/yeshu.htm

 

[stillsmallvoice]

Hi all!

Tonyq, I’m familiar with that site & the group to which it is affiliated. They are hardly representative of mainstream orthodox Jews in particular & all Jew in general. They represent mainstream orthodox Judaism the same way that the Society of St. Pius X represents mainstream Roman Catholicism. (You have your extremists & we have ours.)

See ajc.org/site/apps/nl/content3.asp?c=ijITI2PHKoG&b=846561&ct=1089255. I’ll cite one excerpt:

But beyond all this is the question of the special place that Christianity should have in Judaism’s religious world view. While as mentioned, our negative encounter with Christianity has hardly lent itself to such, there have been those who have been able to view Christianity in a more noble light. Beyond Yehudah Halevi and Maimonides (twelfth and thirteenth centuries) who saw Christianity and Islam as a vehicle for bringing essential truths to humanity at large; and beyond Rabbi Menachem HaMeiri a century later who defines Christianity and Islam as true religion; scholars like Rabbi Moses Rivkes in the seventeenth century affirmed the unique relationship between Christianity and Judaism, long before modern Jewish philosophers like Franz Rosenzweig and Martin Buber. The latter’s comment that “we share a book and a hope” were more than anticipated by Rivkes when he declared that Jews and Christians are bound together by the Hebrew Bible and its message of salvation, revelation and full Messianic expectation.

But arguably the boldest of all these pre-modern, Orthodox Rabbinic theologians, was the great Rabbi Jacob Emden at the turn of the eighteenth century who described Christianity with the Mishnaic designation as a “knessiyah leshem shamayim shesofa lehitkayam”, a gathering for the sake of Heaven, of lasting validity. (Actually the Hebrew word “knessiyah” is a translation for “church” – so in fact Emden is referring to Christianity as a Church for the sake of Heaven that is part of Divine purpose for humanity at large!) Incidentally, Emden’s theological affirmation of Christianity goes well beyond the vision articulated in Dabru Emet – the positive statement about Christianity drawn up by a group of American Jewish scholars, signed by hundreds of rabbis and other Jewish scholars, and issued three years ago – which elicited such a positive response from our Christian partners.

Emden goes beyond his aforementioned predecessors in not just seeing Christianity as bringing truths of Judaism to the rest of the world; but in seeing it as having its own salvific character. If this is the case, then how might we understand the relationship between Christianity and Judaism in a way that the former has something to teach the latter as well as vice versa? As I have indicated, until recently the question could not have even been raised by most Jews, let alone considered. Notwithstanding Emden’s remarkable theological vision, the tragic negative historical experience overwhelmed even any familiarity with Emden’s position itself, let alone any willingness to consider its theological implications!

Rabbi David Rosen (the author of the foregoing, whom I know personally & esteem highly) and Italian Chief Rabbi DiSegni (and the many Chief Rabbis of Israel who have met with the current & the former Pope) are far more representative of mainstream orthodox Jews than those with which the link you gave is affiliated.

Our theological disagreements are what they are. However, the challenge for believing Jews & believing Catholics is to find ways to live together, cooperate & engage in meaningful dialogue right now, in the present (and not let the pace or tone of that dialogue be set by our respective extremists).

Be well!

ssv

 

[tonyq]

stillsmallvoice:

Rabbi David Rosen (the author of the foregoing, whom I know personally & esteem highly) and Italian Chief Rabbi DiSegni (and the many Chief Rabbis of Israel who have met with the current & the former Pope) are far more representative of mainstream orthodox Jews than those with which the link you gave is affiliated.:

Is Rabbi David Rosen an Orthodox, Conservative or Reform rabbi?
The address was given at Fordham University, and it seems likely that such an address would ten to be conciliatory. Which I am all for these good relations, but I wonder how widespread are they among Orthodox Jews, who are more or less in charge of Israel today, is that not the case?
BTW, do you know the background of Professor Israel Shahak? I understand that he was in a Nazi concentration camp and was a professor at Hebrew University. No doubt you are aware of what he has published. Why was he publishing such a thing?

 

[Guar_Fan]

Thank you, everyone, for starting this thread and continuing the conversation. I was not aware that, before Nostra Aetate, the state of relations between the Catholic Church and Jews was so poor.

It sounds as if there has been much progress over the past 40 years. And even if the road is bumpy in places, we are surely travelling in the right direction.

 

[Ortho]

tonyq:

This is nice and I am all in favor of better relations between Catholics and Jews. However, it looks to me like it can only go so far and that the theological divisions are really too great. For example, take a look at:
noahide.com/yeshu.htm

Why would theological differences interfere with good relations?

 

[stillsmallvoice]

Hi all!

tonyq:

Is Rabbi David Rosen an Orthodox, Conservative or Reform rabbi?

The address was given at Fordham University, and it seems likely that such an address would ten to be conciliatory. Which I am all for these good relations, but I wonder how widespread are they among Orthodox Jews, who are more or less in charge of Israel today, is that not the case?

Rabbi Rosen is quite orthodox. (He’s a former Chief Rabbi of Ireland.)

tonyq:

BTW, do you know the background of Professor Israel Shahak? I understand that he was in a Nazi concentration camp and was a professor at Hebrew University. No doubt you are aware of what he has published. Why was he publishing such a thing?

Sigh

The late Prof. Israel Shahak…I cannot even begin to imagine the traumas he underwent during the Holocaust. It obviously affected him very deeply. However, he was a left-wing extremist (of Noam Chomsky’s ilk) and a legend in his own mind and to those vehemently anti-Israel and anti-Semitic elements, who seized upon him because his views neatly dovetail with their own. His influence outside the very limited circles that adored him was nil; even mainstream critics of Israel and Judaism ignored him. Prof. Shahak was egregiously wrong about a great many things. See this 1966 article by the then Chief Rabbi of the British Commonwealth Lord Immanuel Jakobovitz (of blessed memory): tinyurl.com/des2. Try also: wernercohn.com/Shahak.html & andrew.mathis.net/shahak.html.

What are some of Prof. Shahak’s calumnies?

There is no religious duty to spit on Christian clerics, churches or holy objects.

On Jan. 24, 2005, our (Israel’s) Ashkenazi Chief Rabbi Yonah Metzger met with His Beatitude Archbishop Torkom Manoogian, the (96th) Armenian Patriarch of Jerusalem, after a religious Jewish youth did spit on a senior Armenian churchman in 2004:

Israeli chief rabbi’s visit to Patriarchate seen as bid to improve relations

by Michele Green, Ecumenical News International

JERUSALEM — Israel’s Ashkenazi chief rabbi has paid an unprecedented official visit to the headquarters of the Armenian Patriarch in Jerusalem in what is seen as a drive by Israeli officials to improve Jewish‑Christian relations in the Holy Land.

Rabbi Yona Metzger, one of two chief rabbis, made the visit as part of a series of meetings with Christian leaders to mend relations after a Jewish seminary student attacked an Armenian archbishop last year.

“The rabbi condemned attacks against religious clerics and called for mutual respect between all faiths to be upheld in Israel and across the world,” Metzger’s office said.

(cont.)

Link: pcusa.org/pcnews/2005/05054.htm. See also israelnationalnews.com/news.php3?id=75792.

Are there Jews who have spat upon Christian clergymen, churches, etc? Unfortunately, yes; as an orthodox Jew, such acts shame me. But such uncouth, boorish & ill-mannered behavior is contrary to the norms of our faith & shouldn’t/doesn’t/can’t reflect on our faith. Rather, it is another example of the divergence one often finds between what our respective faiths teach (i.e. what its normative doctrines are) and what individual given believers may actually do/believe/say

(cont.)

 

[stillsmallvoice]

(cont.)

Prof. Shahak has also written: "“Dishonoring Christian religious symbols is an old religious duty in Judaism. Spitting on the cross, and especially on the Crucifix, and spitting when a Jew passes a church, have been obligatory from around AD 200 for pious Jews. In the past, when the danger of anti-Semitic hostility was a real one, the pious Jews were commanded by their rabbis either to spit so that the reason for doing so would be unknown, or to spit onto their chests, not actually on the cross or openly before the church…The increasing strength of the Jewish state has caused these customs to become more open again but there should be no mistake: The spitting on the cross for converts from Christianity to Judaism, organized in Kibbutz Sa’ad and financed by the Israeli government, is a an act of traditional Jewish piety.”

This one is very easy to deal with. It’s poppycock (I was tempted to use a somewhat cruder term having to do with male bovine excrement), i.e. it’s a lie, i.e. whoever wrote/claims such a thing is either badly misinformed or is consciously trying to sow discord & spread ill will. I’ve been to Saad (saad.org.il/caterin1.html). Saad is one of Israel’s religious kibbutzim (the plural of kibbutz). It & a few other religious kibbutzim have conversion programs. There are 2 converts in my family & several others in our (religious) neighborhood (jr.co.il/ma/pic/ma012.htm) in the Jerusalem suburb of Maaleh Adumim (jr.co.il/ma/). Spitting on a cross is NOT part of the conversion (or any other Jewish) ceremony!

Howzat?

Be well!

ssv

 

[bones_IV]

quote=stillsmallvoice

Prof. Shahak has also written: "“Dishonoring Christian religious symbols is an old religious duty in Judaism. Spitting on the cross, and especially on the Crucifix, and spitting when a Jew passes a church, have been obligatory from around AD 200 for pious Jews. In the past, when the danger of anti-Semitic hostility was a real one, the pious Jews were commanded by their rabbis either to spit so that the reason for doing so would be unknown, or to spit onto their chests, not actually on the cross or openly before the church…The increasing strength of the Jewish state has caused these customs to become more open again but there should be no mistake: The spitting on the cross for converts from Christianity to Judaism, organized in Kibbutz Sa’ad and financed by the Israeli government, is a an act of traditional Jewish piety.”

This one is very easy to deal with. It’s poppycock (I was tempted to use a somewhat cruder term having to do with male bovine excrement), i.e. it’s a lie, i.e. whoever wrote/claims such a thing is either badly misinformed or is consciously trying to sow discord & spread ill will. I’ve been to Saad (saad.org.il/caterin1.html). Saad is one of Israel’s religious kibbutzim (the plural of kibbutz). It & a few other religious kibbutzim have conversion programs. There are 2 converts in my family & several others in our (religious) neighborhood (jr.co.il/ma/pic/ma012.htm) in the Jerusalem suburb of Maaleh Adumim (jr.co.il/ma/). Spitting on a cross is NOT part of the conversion (or any other Jewish) ceremony!

Howzat?

Be well!

ssv
[/quote]

Thank you for your interesting perspective.

 

[tonyq]

(Howzat?
:

Thank you for the detailed explanation of this and also for the links. It is something that was brought up elsewhere and did concern me. But you have given a pretty good response. In any case, I would like to see good relations between Christians and Jews, since we have much in common and hopefully, we might be able to learn something positive from each other.
But, I still have another question. Here it is. The nonJew is bound by the Noahide laws, according to what I understand is the Jewish teaching. And these must be observed if the nonJew wants to attain eternal bliss. Now one of the Noahide laws concerns the command to avoid idolatry. Here is the question: Don’t some Jews regard certain elements of the Catholic religion as idolatrous and therefore this would exclude Catholics from ever attaining eternal bliss? Do you disagree with them one hundred percent or do you find that certain aspects, ceremonies or teachings of Catholicism are idolatrous from the Jewish perspective?

 

[stillsmallvoice]

Hi all!

bones_IV:

Thank you for your interesting perspective.

You’re welcome!

tonyq:

But, I still have another question. Here it is. The nonJew is bound by the Noahide laws, according to what I understand is the Jewish teaching. And these must be observed if the nonJew wants to attain eternal bliss. Now one of the Noahide laws concerns the command to avoid idolatry. Here is the question: Don’t some Jews regard certain elements of the Catholic religion as idolatrous and therefore this would exclude Catholics from ever attaining eternal bliss? Do you disagree with them one hundred percent or do you find that certain aspects, ceremonies or teachings of Catholicism are idolatrous from the Jewish perspective?

First, only God can weigh & sift what is in a person’s heart & soul, whether that person is a Jew, a Roman Catholic, a Muslim, etc. and decide who shall be rewarded and who not, and all the grades in between (we have beliefs similar to the Roman Catholic notion of purgatory), and on what basis. The seven Noahide precepts are what they are but only God can decide who has fulfilled them sufficiently, Many Orthodox Jews may find the differences between adoring an icon and using it as a focus for one’s prayer (which, in anycase, are forbidden to Jews) and outright worshipping it & praying to it, to be either mere semantics or too fine to judge. However, as long as the icon/image is not being outright worshipped or prayed to by a non-Jew, I don’t see the problem. The ideas of a triune God, God becoming flesh, etc. are totally antithetical to Judaism but since denying that God is triune or ever became flesh aren’t among the 7 Noahide precepts, this isn’t relevant.

Be well!

ssv (who is thinking Black and Gold thoughts)

 

[tonyq]

stillsmallvoice:

The ideas of a triune God, God becoming flesh, etc. are totally antithetical to Judaism but since denying that God is triune or ever became flesh aren’t among the 7 Noahide precepts, this isn’t relevant.

Well, it was brought up to me by a Jewish lady, that idolatry is forbidden, and her implication was that there was a rather serious problem with Catholicism in that regard. This was something that i had not thought about until she had brought it up. For example, as you know, Catholics worship the consecrated Host and have hours of Adoration set aside in Church for that purpose. As I read into the Noahide Laws, it looks like you would not be able to attain eternal bliss, if you were a nonJew and did not observe the Noahide Laws. In other words, the problem was the thought that you would be going to hell if you were Catholic because you would be unable to observe a particular Noahide Law because of what a Jew might interpret as idolatry.

I really don’t see how you can say that the Trinity is not relevant, because Catholics are worshipping Jesus Christ as God and if a Jew does not accept this, then why would it not be very relevant to the question of whether or not a nonJew is fulfilling the Noahide Commandments.

 

[stillsmallvoice]

Hi all!

tonyq:

I really don’t see how you can say that the Trinity is not relevant, because Catholics are worshipping Jesus Christ as God and if a Jew does not accept this, then why would it not be very relevant to the question of whether or not a nonJew is fulfilling the Noahide Commandments.

Idolatry involves worshipping/praying to a tangible object/image; debates about the nature of God (triune or not) are not relevant to this particular issue.

tonyq:

Well, it was brought up to me by a Jewish lady, that idolatry is forbidden, and her implication was that there was a rather serious problem with Catholicism in that regard. This was something that i had not thought about until she had brought it up. For example, as you know, Catholics worship the consecrated Host and have hours of Adoration set aside in Church for that purpose. As I read into the Noahide Laws, it looks like you would not be able to attain eternal bliss, if you were a nonJew and did not observe the Noahide Laws. In other words, the problem was the thought that you would be going to hell if you were Catholic because you would be unable to observe a particular Noahide Law because of what a Jew might interpret as idolatry.

The 7 Noahide precepts for non-Jews (and the 613+ precepts for us) are not all-or-nothing. If someone comes up a bit short on one, God can offset that with surplus from one of the others. Only God can thus consider a person’s overall spiritual state as a whole & make the appropriate judgements & decisions. I, for one, am content to let such matters rest in His hands (so to speak) & am way too concerned about my own spiritual state to rush into making decisions about others’ spiritual states.

Our Sages teach that we should be zealous in rooting out sin and in touting virtue. We should seek to root out sin in ourselves before seeking to root it out in others and we should tout others’ virtues before touting our own.

Be well!

ssv (who is thinking Black and Gold thoughts)