Transforming the Catholic-Jewish Relationship

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stillsmallvoice:
Our Sages teach that we should be zealous in rooting out sin and in touting virtue. We should seek to root out sin in ourselves before seeking to root it out in others and we should tout others’ virtues before touting our own.
:
You are making some excellent points here. I will think about what you have written and try to apply it to myself and my situation.
Thank you so much for contributing to this forum and taking the time to clear up some things for me.
I find that you have the answers that I have been looking for, so I hope you don’t mind if I toss a few more barbed questions at you again.
Looking forward to good relations between Catholics and Jews,
tonyq
 
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tonyq:
You are making some excellent points here. I will think about what you have written and try to apply it to myself and my situation.
Thank you so much for contributing to this forum and taking the time to clear up some things for me.
I find that you have the answers that I have been looking for, so I hope you don’t mind if I toss a few more barbed questions at you again.
Looking forward to good relations between Catholics and Jews,
tonyq
I’m always amazed - although I shouldn’t be - at the consistencies between orthodox Judaism and orthodox Catholicism.
 
Hi all!
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tonyq:
Thank you so much for contributing to this forum and taking the time to clear up some things for me.
You’re welcome! 🙂
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tonyq:
I find that you have the answers that I have been looking for, so I hope you don’t mind if I toss a few more barbed questions at you again.
I don’t mind at all!
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tonyq:
Looking forward to good relations between Catholics and Jews
Me too!

I work at a govt. office here & I was fortunate enough to work on the late Pope John Paul II’s visit here in March 2000. I am immensely looking forward to similarly working on Pope Benedict XVI’s visit here (whenever that is; he has been here before, when he was just Cardinal Ratzinger).
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Maranatha:
I’m always amazed - although I shouldn’t be - at the consistencies between orthodox Judaism and orthodox Catholicism.
I think that Roman Catholicism & orthodox Judaism (despite our rather obvious differences) have much in common. Our views on many ethical & moral issues are similar. But beyond that, ours are faiths with rules, with authority & structure & with discipline. Ours are not make-it-up-as-you-go-along faiths & never have been (I suppose Protestantism & Reform Judaism are like that); i.e. we’re not cafeteria faiths. (Neither do we hold to sola scriptura.) Rather than mold the faith to fit the individual, I think that we believe that it is the individual who must mold him/herself to fit the faith. The late former Chief Rabbi of the British Commonwealth, Lord Immanuel Jakobovitz (of blessed memory) once said that a faith which demands nothing is worth nothing. To be an orthodox Jew demands a great deal & I have learned that to be a Roman Catholic is similarly very demanding.

Be well!

ssv (who dreams of Black and Gold gridiron glory!) 👋
 
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stillsmallvoice:
Hi all!

You’re welcome! 🙂

I don’t mind at all!

Me too!

I work at a govt. office here & I was fortunate enough to work on the late Pope John Paul II’s visit here in March 2000. I am immensely looking forward to similarly working on Pope Benedict XVI’s visit here (whenever that is; he has been here before, when he was just Cardinal Ratzinger).

I think that Roman Catholicism & orthodox Judaism (despite our rather obvious differences) have much in common. Our views on many ethical & moral issues are similar. But beyond that, ours are faiths with rules, with authority & structure & with discipline. Ours are not make-it-up-as-you-go-along faiths & never have been (I suppose Protestantism & Reform Judaism are like that); i.e. we’re not cafeteria faiths. (Neither do we hold to sola scriptura.) Rather than mold the faith to fit the individual, I think that we believe that it is the individual who must mold him/herself to fit the faith. The late former Chief Rabbi of the British Commonwealth, Lord Immanuel Jakobovitz (of blessed memory) once said that a faith which demands nothing is worth nothing. To be an orthodox Jew demands a great deal & I have learned that to be a Roman Catholic is similarly very demanding.

Be well!

ssv (who dreams of Black and Gold gridiron glory!) 👋
Thank you for your interesting analysis. Let ask you, do you believe in the existence of the devil? I hope this doesn’t sound like a dumb question. Are you a Pittsburg fan by any chance? The quarterback of the Steelers is from my area in Ohio. Findlay, Ohio.
 
Hi all!
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bones_IV:
Thank you for your interesting analysis.
You’re welcome!
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bones_IV:
Let ask you, do you believe in the existence of the devil? I hope this doesn’t sound like a dumb question.
Well, we do believe in Satan but our beliefs about him are different than those of our Roman Catholic friends.

See beingjewish.com/basics/satan.html & jewfaq.org/human.htm#Yetzer.
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bones_IV:
Are you a Pittsburg fan by any chance? The quarterback of the Steelers is from my area in Ohio. Findlay, Ohio.
Me??!! Nahhh…whatever gave you that idea? 😉

Be well!

ssv 👋 http://us.i1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/i/us/sp/v/nfl/teams/1/80x60/pit.gif 👍
 
Elder brother, SSV, I’m happy to see you posting so much on this topic, and I hope the queries haven’t bothered you too much (though I’m sure they haven’t in the slightest 🙂 ). As a side note, I’ve been presenting the Talmud to Catholics lately so that we can get a better understanding of many of our theological Traditions; although much of what we hold dear comes from Temple Judaism, the Mishnah and the commentary by the great Rabbis is very valuable in understanding that period of Judaism. There are a number of things that Catholics take for granted that are deeply rooted in Jewish thought and tradition, and they don’t even realize it! It goes beyond even the similarities of “style” that Catholics and Orthodox Jews obviously have in common.

That being said…
(who dreams of Black and Gold gridiron glory!) 👋
If not on the Messiah, we mush part ways on this. SEAHAWKS ALL THE WAY!!! 😃

Peace and God bless!
 
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Ghosty:
There are a number of things that Catholics take for granted that are deeply rooted in Jewish thought and tradition, and they don’t even realize it! It goes beyond even the similarities of “style” that Catholics and Orthodox Jews obviously have in common.
Can you give some examples of these things that Catholics take for granted.
Thank you!
 
Boy, talk about a tall order 😃

I guess the biggest examples in my mind right now are from Tractate Yoma of the Babylonian Talmud, since that’s what I’ve been reading. In it are two concepts that are deeply rooted in Catholicism: the idea of blood-atonement, and the concept of “infallible” decisions on the part of the “Church”.

The blood-atonement is obvious, and has actually been brought up again recently when SSV linked to an older thread on the subject. Since the Temple practices have been on a 2000 year hiatus, it’s easy to forget how central the practice of sacrifice was to Judaism. Not in the sense that blood was the only part of worship, quite the contrary, just that it was integral to the practice of personal and corporate atonement. This connection is so critical that it’s actually one of the prime Catholic “indentifiers”, the Crucifix. It’s why we call Jesus the “Lamb of God”, in reference to the Passover Lamb who gives its blood so that death will pass over the faithful. The idea that the spilling of blood is intimately tied to the cleansing of sins and impurities, and is a sacred act commissioned by God, is at the center of our faith, and it comes straight from Judaism. Also important is the individual’s feeling and contrition in participating in the blood-sacrifice, making it not a mechanical trade of blood for forgiveness, but a spiritual growth and letting go of evil. This is why we don’t believe the Blood of Christ cleans us regardless of ourselves, but rather works with us intimately to purify us as we ourselves work towards that profound sanctification.

Many times as Catholics I think we forget that this intimate encounter and Sacrifice is not simply a “Christian” thing, but the manifestation of a very Jewish thing. While Orthodox Jews obviously don’t practice this ritual right now, I know many who look forward with deep spiritual longing to the day when they can resume that part of their faith. It’s as if they’ve been waiting for 2,000 years to have Mass again. Think about that.

The other point from Tractate Yoma is the use of Urim and Thurrim, the “Divine Lots”. They were objects of some sort (it’s up for a bit of debate on precisely what they were, but their use is agreed upon) that were used by the High Priest to determine, in pressing matters, an infallible “yes or no” answer from God. They were not for common use, and they were generally reserved for decisions that required absolute assurance. Following their advice led to resounding success, not following them led to failure, and asking poorly formed questions led to inconclusive answers. That is very similar to our Catholic concept of the infallibility of the Magisterium when it comes to Faith and Morals. We have very explicit limitations on when such matters are decided, what kind of matters are decided, and how they are expressed, but when they are they are considered irrevokable and infallibly guided by God Himself. God’s Divine protection will not allow the Pope to err in proclaiming Faith and Morals, just as God did not allow Urim and Thurrim to err in guiding Israel via the High Priest. Furthermore, it was not a power of the High Priest, not a mystical insight, but rather an infallible “attachment” to his office, quite literally as the Urim and Thurrim were a part of his sacred clothing. When the High Priest drew on Urim and Thurrim, his counsel came from God, not from man, just as the Pope, when speaking as the leader of all the faithful on matters of Faith and Morals, simply relates the irrevokable judgement of God, not his own personal view.

There are many more, including the how the purifying mikvehs relate to the Catholic Sacrament of Baptism (and how Baptism relates to circumcision), and many more. Those two immediately sprung fresh in my mind, however.

Peace and God bless!
 
Hi all!

Ghosty, as always, it’s both interesting & a pleasure to read your posts.
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Ghosty:
While Orthodox Jews obviously don’t practice this ritual right now, I know many who look forward with deep spiritual longing to the day when they can resume that part of their faith.
Correct.

As a Levite (i.e. headstrong, excitable, etc.), I’m looking forward to seeing what duties I’ll be assigned. Not singing. If they make me one of the singing Levites, I’ll clear out the Temple right quick. Maybe I’ll be one of the guards. 🙂

I heard something interesting this past Shabbat (Saturday). Worship in the Temple was oriented from east-to-west (the Holy of Holies was on the western side of the Temple & when facing it, we faced to the west). This is a denial/refutation of sun worship. We turn our backs to the sun when it’s rising (some ancient Canaanites worshipped the sun by riding/running towards the rising son) & face it when it’s waning/on the way out; thus, we show that we do not ascribe any divinity to the sun.

Your comments on the Urim and Thummim were very interesting. I had never thought of the analogy to the Catholic doctrine of Papal Infallibility before.

The Urim and Thummim (see ohr.edu/yhiy/article.php/2032 & jewishencyclopedia.com/view.jsp?artid=52&letter=U#1)
were among the things that were lacking in the Second Temple and which, we believe, will be restored in the Third.

Be well!

ssv 👋 http://us.i1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/i/us/sp/v/nfl/teams/1/80x60/pit.gif

Oh, see freep.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060125/SPORTS1101/601250358 for why everyone in the Motor City is rooting for the team from the Steel City!
 
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