Transgender and communion?

[Bruised_Reed]

How do you treat species dysphoria? What about the differences between social and physical gender dysphoria?

No idea. I haven’t researched that enough to comment. I have read a lot about GID and transgender issues plus I know people who are transgender, one since birth and another since they were 4 y.o.

Isn’t it true that people can have a chronic and profound difficulty adjusting to what is, unfortunately, the truth?

Yes. I think there is something biological, something that happened before birth, similar to an unexpected intersex condition.

What about people who are convinced they aren’t really members of their biological family?

Interesting. I’ve never heard of that. I used to ask my mom if I was adopted. I think it gave my mom a complex. I wonder if some of these things bother other people more than the one with the condition. “You’re different so i have to make you normal and if I can’t I don’t want to deal with it or you.” Yeah, I think that happens, a lot.

Aren’t there numerous instances in which a person honestly has a deep-seated and disturbing sense that something that is true about them is not true?

I don’t know if you are referring to this but it sounds like something I experience with anxiety. It’s treated with medication and CBT. It that worked for GID that would be great but it doesn’t.

Surgeons and pharmacists cannot change a person’s gender,

I’m not saying they can and stop implying that I do.

but you’re arguing that getting all of society to make the pretense that they can is the best treatment for a deep-seated difficulty in accepting one’s sex

Yeah, yeah, I do. Being kind is free and treating a person who doesn’t pass well with kindness is what we are talking about here. We’ve encountered transgender people and didn’t change our behaviour because they pass well. Ultimately we end up talking about those that don’t pass well because we notice them and they are the ones that you find troubling.

 

[PetraG]

I’m not saying they can and stop implying that I do.

Explain: when someone says they are transitioning, what are they transitioning from and what are they transitioning to? What is the surgeon’s role? What is the pharmacist’s role? What are the drugs and the surgeries accomplishing? Why is it necessary to change names and change pronouns? What is that supposed to accomplish?

Yeah, yeah, I do. Being kind is free and treating a person who doesn’t pass well with kindness is what we are talking about here. We’ve encountered transgender people and didn’t change our behaviour because they pass well. Ultimately we end up talking about those that don’t pass well because we notice them and they are the ones that you find troubling.

In our time, truth is often mistaken for the opinion of the majority. In addition, there is a widespread belief that one should use the truth even against love or vice versa. But truth and love need each other. St Teresa Benedicta is a witness to this. The “martyr for love”, who gave her life for her friends, let no one surpass her in love. At the same time, with her whole being she sought the truth, of which she wrote: “No spiritual work comes into the world without great suffering. It always challenges the whole person”.

St Teresa Benedicta of the Cross says to us all: Do not accept anything as the truth if it lacks love. And do not accept anything as love which lacks truth! One without the other becomes a destructive lie.
–Pope John Paul II, homily for the canonization of St. Teresa Benedicta of the Cross

 

[Bruised_Reed]

Explain: when someone says they are transitioning, what are they transitioning from and what are they transitioning to ? What is the surgeon’s role?

When I can post from something other than my phone I’ll answer. The buttons on this site often become unresponsive and I can’t copy-padye, link, or reply even if I have a complete post typed out since I need to give thoughtful replies to those questions I’ll have to do it later. But let me ask: Have you given anytime to thinking about this or are you just parroting anti-trans rhetoric? I’ve spent ti.e reasoning and processing this over several years, before (thankfully) I knew that people close to me were trans and much more since. I read a lot. I’ve watched videos on transitioning and detransitioning. I am not an all encompassing resource so I encourage you to put the effort in. What have to offer is not satisfactory to you so anything I post later will be similar.

 

[PetraG]

When I can post from something other than my phone I’ll answer. The buttons on this site often become unresponsive and I can’t copy-padye, link, or reply even if I have a complete post typed out since I need to give thoughtful replies to those questions I’ll have to do it later. But let me ask: Have you given anytime to thinking about this or are you just parroting anti-trans rhetoric? I’ve spent ti.e reasoning and processing this over several years, before (thankfully) I knew that people close to me were trans and much more since. I read a lot. I’ve watched videos on transitioning and detransitioning. I am not an all encompassing resource so I encourage you to put the effort in. What have to offer is not satisfactory to you so anything I post later will be similar.

I have a relative who contends he is a woman. I do not doubt he’s had something going on that has made life very difficult for him, but he’s a man. I do not want to go into too much detail, because there is no reason to drag him into this conversation personally. He goes by “she” and lives as a woman but he keeps a rather low profile. I may not agree that he is a she, but I do agree he doesn’t deserve to be anyone’s discussion forum football.

I also live not very far from Silverton, Oregon, where Stu Rasmussen was the long-time mayor. He identifies as a man who always wanted to have cleavage and to wear dresses. He was criticized for wearing clothing no female elected official could ever get away with, but the voters find he does keep the town in the black. He sometimes goes by the name Carla Fong, but he sticks with male pronouns and self-identifies as “a dude, a heterosexual man who appears to be female.” He is hailed as the first transgender mayor, but honestly he seems more of a transvestite who went to a plastic surgeon. (The last time I heard, he lived with a long-time girlfriend.)

The question is whether someone who honestly believes they were born the wrong sex can receive Holy Communion. I do not see an indication that the bishops look at this as a sin that the person with the gender dysphoria commits, because they do realize this is a very distressing condition to live with. They look at this as an irresponsible and false treatment, but as far as I know, they do not blame the patients in distress for accepting the treatments offered by their physicians and therapists. (Abortion, in contrast, is one patient deciding to seek the help of a health-care provider in taking the life of another, which is a totally different matter.) Having said that, I do not think most bishops would allow men to dress as women and take on a persona of the opposite sex or vice versa while employed at a Catholic school, at least not in K-12.

 

[OraLabora]

(Abortion, in contrast, is one patient deciding to seek the help of a health-care provider in taking the life of another, which is a totally different matter.)

Abortion also can have mitigating factors. The woman could be under the influence of a violent boyfriend for example, or be a minor child forced into it for the family’s “honour” (as they see it, of course it’s totally dishonourable but I do know families that did the right thing, and supported their daughter through her pregnancy and helped raise the child), or depressed or despondent.

Like any sin there can be mitigated culpability. Transgenderism is the same; the grave sin of mutilation may have mitigated culpability due to the seriousness of the condition.

I have an adult transgendered child. It is a very difficult condition for which relief is hard to find and for which conventional psychiatry has no known cure. I invite you to speak with one if you ever can. It is not a figment of their imaginations. The only solution I have found for my child is to love her as much as I can and help her as much as I can.

 

[Alex337]

Tis_Bearself:

She was likely denied for not following the prescribed dress code for First Communicants and for her parents (as they presumably control what their kid wears to First Communion) pushing an unwanted agenda at a Church event.

Interesting photo in that article, eh? They’re in the store, trying on suits (notice the dressing rooms and the tag still on the jacket). Mom takes a picture in the mirror, posing her daughter in quite the interesting pose of defiance. You think the mom wasn’t being deliberate in her actions, knowing fully what she was doing? Yeah… right…

Interestingly, the issue isn’t one of “denying first communion”: the parish offered the option of wearing the suit – but doing so in a private ceremony. So, no, she wasn’t denied a First Holy Communion. Her mom chose not to allow her to participate. And to take it national. And then pull her out of the school.

It’s almost like the kid was posing happily for a photo or something.

 

[Alex337]

Socrates92:

I’m used to winning arguments

Or, at least, accustomed to claiming victory, while others’ eyeballs roll back into their heads.

Outside watcher; yeah, he can claim to win lots of arguments but that refutation was sloppy and failed.

 

[Maximilian75]

I have my ears pierced; is this disrespecting the temple? I also have two tattoos, both were done to aid depression/anxiety and have worked a charm (they helped break the habit of scratching the skin in those areas); is this disrespecting the temple?

Those areas aren’t central to the nature of the human person and directly linked to hormonal well-being

I’m having a double mastectomy next year when finances permit; is that disrespecting them temple?

Is it medically nessecary?

And, again, I say

I don’t think a debate on the Internet will change your mind on this issue, so… agree to disagree, perhaps?

 

[Alex337]

Alex337:

I have my ears pierced; is this disrespecting the temple? I also have two tattoos, both were done to aid depression/anxiety and have worked a charm (they helped break the habit of scratching the skin in those areas); is this disrespecting the temple?

Those areas aren’t central to the nature of the human person and directly linked to hormonal well-being

Heh, so? Where exactly do you draw the line? Is male circumcision okay? It doesn’t hurt hormone production after all.

Alex337:

I’m having a double mastectomy next year when finances permit; is that disrespecting them temple?

Is it medically nessecary?

My doctor thinks so. I don’t have cancer or a higher risk of it that I know of. Remember; top surgery is also deemed medically necessary.

 

[Maximilian75]

Heh, so? Where exactly do you draw the line? Is male circumcision okay? It doesn’t hurt hormone production after all.

Yeah, I am. I think it’s a matter of parental choice.

 

[PetraG]

I have an adult transgendered child. It is a very difficult condition for which relief is hard to find and for which conventional psychiatry has no known cure. I invite you to speak with one if you ever can. It is not a figment of their imaginations. The only solution I have found for my child is to love her as much as I can and help her as much as I can.

I don’t think anyone thinks the feelings are a figment of their imaginations. Even people who are physically a certain gender and self-identify as that gender but aren’t taken that way by people who don’t know them or aren’t accepted as being “male enough” or “female enough” have a really hard time. I don’t know if it is even possible to disentangle self-concept from one’s concept of the people of each sex one might identify with, either.

My relative says his first experience was trying on his sisters’ dresses and finding them cool to wear but his brother who did it with him later denouncing the whole experiment as too weird. He had this “I liked having a dress on, this is not good” moment. I don’t think he’s ever said he had a “I really thought I was one of the sisters not one of the brothers” moment. He has related wanting to wear things his sisters wore, but other than that not wanting to be a woman. (Don’t get me wrong; I know there are people who identify not just with what the opposite sex gets to do or how they’re treated but with being that sex. This issue doesn’t present in just one way…)

On the other hand, if you become a woman, you can keep your job in his profession. I don’t know that he could have come to work as a man in a woman’s clothing. A woman could wear pants all the time, even “masculine styles,” but I don’t think a man could come to work in a woman’s clothing unless he was saying he was transgender. There are politics like that driving this, too.

 

[adgloriam]

In our time, truth is often mistaken for the opinion of the majority. In addition, there is a widespread belief that one should use the truth even against love or vice versa. But truth and love need each other. St Teresa Benedicta is a witness to this. The “martyr for love”, who gave her life for her friends, let no one surpass her in love. At the same time, with her whole being she sought the truth, of which she wrote: “No spiritual work comes into the world without great suffering. It always challenges the whole person”.

St Teresa Benedicta of the Cross says to us all: Do not accept anything as the truth if it lacks love. And do not accept anything as love which lacks truth! One without the other becomes a destructive lie .
–Pope John Paul II, homily for the canonization of St. Teresa Benedicta of the Cross

 

[Gorgias]

It’s almost like the kid was posing happily for a photo or something.

If by that you mean, “the photo was staged in order to be used later”, then yeah… I’d agree.

 

[Tis_Bearself]

I don’t think a man could come to work in a woman’s clothing unless he was saying he was transgender.

There is actually a “men in skirts” movement whereby some men wear women’s clothing but are not transitioning their genders. I have had men friends who are not planning on changing genders, but for various reasons go around in kilts or skirts on a regular basis. I pretty much just ignore it, since as long as they are decently covered, to me it matters not.

 

[PetraG]

I also have two tattoos, both were done to aid depression/anxiety and have worked a charm

Tattoos to prevent scratching? OK, that’s a new one on me.
You can tattoo your skin and your skin still works as skin. It would be wrong to tattoo an image that was intrinsically immoral on yourself. You can pierce your ears; they still bring the sound in with earrings on them.

Psychiatrists also performed pre-frontal lobotomies, which are now considered too destructive. When less destructive treatments were found, that treatment usually became morally untenable. Having said that, if the situation was serious enough, they could be performed. I have heard of a case (but cannot find it) when the local bishop deemed it OK to perform surgery on a patient who kept trying to perform a sort of sex change surgery on himself. The alternative was either keep him restrained all the time or he could have killed himself trying to do it again.

On that parallel, it is one thing to remove a healthy organ if the patient has a condition where leaving it on poses a threat to the patient’s health. A patient could have gastric bypass surgery on a healthy stomach, because intention is to improve the health of the whole body. So–it is theoretically possible that a patient could have surgery to treat a psychological condition. The issue is that it takes a very serious reason indeed before it is OK to remove a healthy organ.

Here is the problem: even if there is a moral reason, it is wrong to represent removing a healthy organ or receiving hormones as a sex change. The person’s sex does not change.

Here is the problem: we are seeing a move to politically protect a false pretense–that is, the pretense that changing someone to look like the other sex in order to treat a serious dysphoria actually changes their sex–AND we are giving political enshrinement to the idea that a medical treatment is accomplishing something that it does not actually accomplish. People are being encouraged to create false personas; they distance themselves from their original persona as it that were a different person. The medical treatment is also being allowed to create a defended political class. How can you develop other treatments that relieve the dysphoria without the person changing into a person of the other sex if it is considered bigotry to imply that the change in persona is not in fact a real change in sex?

I don’t want to post the link, but the The Philadelphia Trans Health Conference was forced to cancel two panels, one on de-transitioning and the other on alternative treatments for sexual dysphoria other than transitioning. There is something wrong with presenting this merely as a “treatment” when a patient who goes through with the surgery and taking hormones decides that the hormone treatment isn’t working for them and they want to stop and go back to their first persona and that is politically opposed. There is something wrong when people who have gotten this treatment don’t want anyone else choosing something else. This is a political football, not just a treatment for a condition that is misunderstood.

 

[Alex337]

Alex337:

Heh, so? Where exactly do you draw the line? Is male circumcision okay? It doesn’t hurt hormone production after all.

Yeah, I am. I think it’s a matter of parental choice.

So you’re okay with parents deciding to chop things off their children’s genitals before they can consent, usually for cosmetic purposes. Weird place to draw the line. Also okay with parents deciding to allow female circumcision?

 

[Alex337]

So… like all photos?

 

[Maximilian75]

usually for cosmetic purposes

Nope, not cleaning smegma can lead to some nasty infections.

Circumcision makes that a non-issue

Also okay with parents deciding to allow female circumcision?

Absolutely not. It’s painful and inhibits multiple crucial bodily functions. (From what i’ve heard)

 

[Gorgias]

So… like all photos?

If all photos are staged in order to be used for political purposes, I guess…

 

[PetraG]

There is actually a “men in skirts” movement whereby some men wear women’s clothing but are not transitioning their genders. I have had men friends who are not planning on changing genders, but for various reasons go around in kilts or skirts on a regular basis. I pretty much just ignore it, since as long as they are decently covered, to me it matters not.

OK, but a kilt is not women’s clothing. It is men’s lower-body clothing that doesn’t have legs. You may as well say a cassock is woman’s clothing!