Transgender

[Whalljim]

I’ve done a fair amount of reading, as this is becoming more and more of an issue. I will admit I’m torn. I don’t agree with the ‘identifying’ with a gender as has seem to become more common. However, it doesn’t seem to be as simple as people just ‘identifying’ with a gender willy nilly.

I believe in seeking out the Truth; I don’t think you can go wrong there; as Christ is Truth.

That said…

It appears the arguments out there aren’t complete. It seems there is the ‘I can identify as whatever’ side, and the ‘Your plumbing/chromosomes are the key factor’ side.

It seems, however, there are a range of cases, based on studies that indicate that the brain morphology of the transgendered people studied is in fact different, and identifies more closely with that of their ‘identified’ gender.

Specifically:
sitn.hms.harvard.edu/flash/2016/gender-lines-science-transgender-identity/

Now, this isn’t necessarily determinative, more research is needed. Nor does this suggest that we just change laws right now to accommodate all transgender ideas. But it does, to me, suggest that in terms of social justice we need to determine what the truth is and what affects that might have.

If they find that brain structure X in a man who identifies as a female is determinative for gender, wouldn’t it be just to try to accomodate them as much as possible? What is the best way to handle transgendered people justly?

 

[meltzerboy]

I’ve done a fair amount of reading, as this is becoming more and more of an issue. I will admit I’m torn. I don’t agree with the ‘identifying’ with a gender as has seem to become more common. However, it doesn’t seem to be as simple as people just ‘identifying’ with a gender willy nilly.

I believe in seeking out the Truth; I don’t think you can go wrong there; as Christ is Truth.

That said…

It appears the arguments out there aren’t complete. It seems there is the ‘I can identify as whatever’ side, and the ‘Your plumbing/chromosomes are the key factor’ side.

It seems, however, there are a range of cases, based on studies that indicate that the brain morphology of the transgendered people studied is in fact different, and identifies more closely with that of their ‘identified’ gender.

Specifically:
sitn.hms.harvard.edu/flash/2016/gender-lines-science-transgender-identity/

Now, this isn’t necessarily determinative, more research is needed. Nor does this suggest that we just change laws right now to accommodate all transgender ideas. But it does, to me, suggest that in terms of social justice we need to determine what the truth is and what affects that might have.

If they find that brain structure X in a man who identifies as a female is determinative for gender, wouldn’t it be just to try to accomodate them as much as possible? What is the best way to handle transgendered people justly?

The whole issue regarding transgender is not only a scientific one, but also interfaces with matters of social justice and equality, social policy, politics, and moral and religious values. It is therefore a complex and emotional issue with no easy, immediate solutions.

 

[Whalljim]

Yes. I think its going to take some time and careful thought on how to best treat the transgendered fairly and with dignity and compassion. We’re going to have to rely on science, philosophy, and social justice on this one. I think, unfortunately, the situation has become a political football. In the short term you want to try to figure out the best ways to help them so they don’t kill themselves; while at the same time not make rash moves that could create other injustices or make the situation worse.

 

[billcu1]

The whole issue regarding transgender is not only a scientific one, but also interfaces with matters of social justice and equality, social policy, politics, and moral and religious values. It is therefore a complex and emotional issue with no easy, immediate solutions.

And as you say, but there are many things that are complex and have no easy answer. But I wonder who is the one that chooses this group, or that group for the attention. If it wasn’t transgenders that have always been around what would it be. We are all confused. IDK if people are thinking about the people as much as at the confusion and trying to “help” by propagating something. For example homosexuality. Some people are just gay. We don’t all have to take this on and make an excuse for it. But on the other hand people are not to be mistreated either. But treating a person with dignity isn’t enough. You must accept positively every confusion as being normal. This makes things even more confusing.

 

[billcu1]

I’ve done a fair amount of reading, as this is becoming more and more of an issue. I will admit I’m torn. I don’t agree with the ‘identifying’ with a gender as has seem to become more common. However, it doesn’t seem to be as simple as people just ‘identifying’ with a gender willy nilly.

I believe in seeking out the Truth; I don’t think you can go wrong there; as Christ is Truth.

That said…

It appears the arguments out there aren’t complete. It seems there is the ‘I can identify as whatever’ side, and the ‘Your plumbing/chromosomes are the key factor’ side.

It seems, however, there are a range of cases, based on studies that indicate that the brain morphology of the transgendered people studied is in fact different, and identifies more closely with that of their ‘identified’ gender.

Specifically:
sitn.hms.harvard.edu/flash/2016/gender-lines-science-transgender-identity/

Now, this isn’t necessarily determinative, more research is needed. Nor does this suggest that we just change laws right now to accommodate all transgender ideas. But it does, to me, suggest that in terms of social justice we need to determine what the truth is and what affects that might have.

If they find that brain structure X in a man who identifies as a female is determinative for gender, wouldn’t it be just to try to accomodate them as much as possible? What is the best way to handle transgendered people justly?

IDK about your source as being honestly “science” as much as a political determination. “Minorities” as are in modern leftist politics seems to things that are minorities for a reason. If I wanted to legalize murder I would be a “minority” and therefore need a voice and not called “disordered” and need to be supported. reductio ad adsurdum. This is exactly what is being done to women, a minority; and abortion rationalized and normalized murder. A minority has an off the wall, non-norm belief or idea not belonging to the majority. I hope this makes sense. But all people need to be treated with dignity.

 

[Whalljim]

IDK about your source as being honestly “science” as much as a political determination. “Minorities” as are in modern leftist politics seems to things that are minorities for a reason. If I wanted to legalize murder I would be a “minority” and therefore need a voice and not called “disordered” and need to be supported. reductio ad adsurdum. This is exactly what is being done to women, a minority; and abortion rationalized and normalized murder. A minority has an off the wall, non-norm belief or idea not belonging to the majority. I hope this makes sense. But all people need to be treated with dignity.

I’m sorry, I’m not following. To me a minority could be anything not in the majority, be it for reasons of biology or shirt color. Maybe I’m being too literal?

As to the source… here is the key part for me:

“Transgender women tend to have brain structures that resemble cisgender women, rather than cisgender men. Two sexually dimorphic (differing between men and women) areas of the brain are often compared between men and women. The bed nucleus of the stria terminalus (BSTc) and sexually dimorphic nucleus of transgender women are more similar to those of cisgender woman than to those of cisgender men, suggesting that the general brain structure of these women is in keeping with their gender identity.”

If this is true, and determinative, then this isn’t a created minority.

 

[Kielbasi]

It seems, however, there are a range of cases, based on studies that indicate that the brain morphology of the transgendered people studied is in fact different, and identifies more closely with that of their ‘identified’ gender.

I hear that, but I don’t think so.

I guess its possible that transgendered individuals have a severe physical problem in the brain.

But it is more likely just a pattern of delusion, like a man who thinks he is Napoleon or Jesus Christ. The only difference here, is that political correctness means that people are supposed to make like they are buying into the fantasy.

 

[Kliska]

There are many psychological factors at play, factors that can shape the brain… but unless the psychology is seen to support someone saying they are transgendered, it’s a no-no to speak about it. That is one of the main problems; we have now deemed it “hateful” to say anything that is not glowingly positive about certain groups, thoughts, situations, impulses, actions, etc… even if it is merely factual.

 

[PJH_74]

Let me throw you guys a curve ball. Consider Androgen insensitivity syndrome, these are people who are XY but who’s body does not respond to testosterone. People completely affected by this issue for the most part develop as women, breasts and all. Often the first time they ever discover this is when they don’t menstruate.

Understandably this does not apply to most transgender people, but it’s undeniable that not all women are XX if you believe God creates people as whole beings.

 

[St_Francis]

I hear that, but I don’t think so.

I guess its possible that transgendered individuals have a severe physical problem in the brain.

But it is more likely just a pattern of delusion, like a man who thinks he is Napoleon or Jesus Christ. The only difference here, is that political correctness means that people are supposed to make like they are buying into the fantasy.

I myself wonder if the causation may not be the other way around: the person has a desire to be the opposite sex, or wants to be something s/he thinks the opposite sex is, and the brain structure changes? Because we know it can happen in other instances.

 

[Nigel7]

Parents need to know that it’s perfectly acceptable to tell their son that he cannot get a boob job or wear high heels.
There’s a movement in our society now to brand people as hateful and prejudice if they dare oppose this trans-gender stuff.

 

[billcu1]

I’m sorry, I’m not following. To me a minority could be anything not in the majority, be it for reasons of biology or shirt color. Maybe I’m being too literal?

As to the source… here is the key part for me:

“Transgender women tend to have brain structures that resemble cisgender women, rather than cisgender men. Two sexually dimorphic (differing between men and women) areas of the brain are often compared between men and women. The bed nucleus of the stria terminalus (BSTc) and sexually dimorphic nucleus of transgender women are more similar to those of cisgender woman than to those of cisgender men, suggesting that the general brain structure of these women is in keeping with their gender identity.”

If this is true, and determinative, then this isn’t a created minority.

I have heard too exactly what you have said above. The DSMs; I believe we are on DSM-V now are so politically motivated you don’t know what to believe. Homosexuality was an “error”. It was removed from the DSM. To make something abnormal (eg. minority) normal. All you have to do is look around and see, animals pair off to reproduce with the opposite sex. But we need to change or invalidate natural law.

As to the physiology of the brain this may or may not be so. Stats are altered and biased. Science changed and confused literally by lobbies. This is not the majority, it’s the minority. Modern leftists say the minority must be made the majority. Not just treat all people with dignity.
I am touching on two points here. Does that help? Don't trust the "science". Or the DSM.

 

[billcu1]

Parents need to know that it’s perfectly acceptable to tell their son that he cannot get a boob job or wear high heels.
There’s a movement in our society now to brand people as hateful and prejudice if they dare oppose this trans-gender stuff.

Politics. Yes making wrong right. Minority the Majority. Minorities are minorities for a reason. Transgenders and all people need to be treated with respect and dignity. But they want to make obviously wrong, right.

 

[billcu1]

I myself wonder if the causation may not be the other way around: the person has a desire to be the opposite sex, or wants to be something s/he thinks the opposite sex is, and the brain structure changes? Because we know it can happen in other instances.

Can you explain that? Change the physiology you mean? An altered anatomy? What other instance(s)?

 

[St_Francis]

Can you explain that? Change the physiology you mean? An altered anatomy? What other instance(s)?

Yes, this is called neuroplasticity. Used to be that scientists thought our brains kind of hardened at a certsin point, and, for example, if a person had a brain injury, that was it. Then they discovered that people who recovered from brain injuries were actually re-wiring their brains, and that the brain remains “plastic” throughout one’s life. Some things are, of course, too big of a change, but many things we do affect the brain’s physiology.

One thing they have been discovering is that thinking depressing thoughts and having a depressed neurophysiology go hand-in-hand, and if you teach a depressed person certsin thinking strategies, they will become less deoressed *and their brain will change. *

The result is, I always wonder which comes first: the thinking or the anatomy? when people say, oh, but it’s a real thing, their brains are different.

 

[buffalo]

Gender Ideology Harms Children

Sexuality and Gender

Findings from the Biological, Psychological, and Social Sciences

Psychiatry Professor: ‘Transgenderism’ Is Mass Hysteria Similar To 1980s-Era Junk Science

 

[PJH_74]

Gender Ideology Harms Children

American College of Pediatricians = Conservative advocacy group.
American Academy of Pediatrics = The one you are probably thinking of.

Sexuality and Gender

Findings from the Biological, Psychological, and Social Sciences

No surprise here as Paul R. McHugh is the one who shut down the John Hopkins transgender program…which as of last fall is now active again.

Psychiatry Professor: ‘Transgenderism’ Is Mass Hysteria Similar To 1980s-Era Junk Science

slowlyboiledfrog.com/2016/11/you-would-think-that-professor-of.html

Dr. Robert Ronis who is the head of the psychiatry department as Case Western Reserve University School of Medicine:

Dr. Corradi is an 80-some year old psychoanalyst who was with the department for many years, but retired from practice more than a decade ago: As your note suggests, protections of academic freedom and general freedom of speech allow him to espouse his views, and while I intend to consult with our faculty affairs office I imagine that as an emeritus faculty member he may continue to identify himself with our university, but please be assured that his views in this matter are in no manner shared by this department or by Case Western Reserve, or as the article clearly states the American Psychiatric Association or mainstream psychiatry. I appreciate your vigilance and will follow up accordingly.

 

[buffalo]

American College of Pediatricians = Conservative advocacy group.
American Academy of Pediatrics = The one you are probably thinking of.

No surprise here as he is the one who shut down the John Hopkins transgender program…which as of last fall is now active again.

slowlyboiledfrog.com/2016/11/you-would-think-that-professor-of.html

Dr. Robert Ronis who is the head of the psychiatry department as Case Western Reserve University School of Medicine:

Dr. Corradi is an 80-some year old psychoanalyst who was with the department for many years, but retired from practice more than a decade ago: As your note suggests, protections of academic freedom and general freedom of speech allow him to espouse his views, and while I intend to consult with our faculty affairs office I imagine that as an emeritus faculty member he may continue to identify himself with our university, but please be assured that his views in this matter are in no manner shared by this department or by Case Western Reserve, or as the article clearly states the American Psychiatric Association or mainstream psychiatry. I appreciate your vigilance and will follow up accordingly.

Hundreds of studies.

 

[PJH_74]

Hundreds of studies.

Sure…

 

[Wesrock]

Let me throw you guys a curve ball. Consider Androgen insensitivity syndrome, these are people who are XY but who’s body does not respond to testosterone. People completely affected by this issue for the most part develop as women, breasts and all. Often the first time they ever discover this is when they don’t menstruate.

Understandably this does not apply to most transgender people, but it’s undeniable that not all women are XX if you believe God creates people as whole beings.

I’ve never liked the chromosome argument for precisely this reason. And clearly some people are born with a complicated intersex physiology and there may be real differences in the morphology of the brain that account for a predisposition to one gender.

First, there are two human sexes. Those are instantiated well almost all of the time. But there are exceptions to the rule (not a “third” sex, but an ambiguous one). Humans are supposed to be born with two arms and two legs, too, by design, but there are exceptions to that as well.

I don’t think it’s technically proper to say someone is born as the wrong sex, either, in transgender arguments. I’m not denying the dysphoria or the disconnect a person feels, and I can understand feeling like you are the wrong sex, but feelings don’t always make an objective truth.

I’ll follow the church’s guidance on this complex issue, and it is complex. It’s my understanding that surgery is not necessarily corrective and may be mutilation.