Transgender

[PJH_74]

I’ve never liked the chromosome argument for precisely this reason. And clearly some people are born with a complicated intersex physiology and there may be real differences in the morphology of the brain that account for a predisposition to one gender.

I appreciate your response here.

First, there are two human sexes. Those are instantiated well almost all of the time. But there are exceptions to the rule (not a “third” sex, but an ambiguous one). Humans are supposed to be born with two arms and two legs, too, by design, but there are exceptions to that as well.

I don’t think it’s technically proper to say someone is born as the wrong sex, either, in transgender arguments. I’m not denying the dysphoria or the disconnect a person feels, and I can understand feeling like you are the wrong sex, but feelings don’t always make an objective truth.

I’ll follow the church’s guidance on this complex issue, and it is complex. It’s my understanding that surgery is not necessarily corrective and may be mutilation.

No, surgery is not always necessary, hormones may be enough for example. People do not come out as some sort of transgender lightly. The effects on their personal life can be huge including both relationships and income. I think there’s a misconception that most people have “bottom” surgery; they don’t to my understanding. Anything else, really, is common plastic surgery that no one seems to decry. For that matter it is kind of telling, to me, that there is not much push back on “normal” plastic surgery. Is not, other than reconstructive surgery, it a mutilation and modification of how we were created to have huge boobs, etc.?

 

[Kielbasi]

I appreciate your response here.

No, surgery is not always necessary, hormones may be enough for example.

I don’t think that Hormone treatment really cures the transgender individual of their confusion at all.

In fact, I think it might actually reinforce the delusion of the patient about being of the opposite sex.

 

[Rau]

…I guess its possible that transgendered individuals have a severe physical problem in the brain.

But it is more likely just a pattern of delusion, like a man who thinks he is Napoleon…

This idea of delusion does not accord well with the experience of persons suffering badly from dysphoria. They have no delusions as to their physical attributes, nature,etc. They are not believing something about themselves that is objectively false (as does the delusional napoleon). They are suffering a dissonance between their body (which they recognise for what it is) and their brain which seems to be working from a different premise. Science is yet to understand what drives this; and why it sometimes arises at a very early age.

 

[SuperLuigi]

The whole issue regarding transgender is not only a scientific one, but also interfaces with matters of social justice and equality, social policy, politics, and moral and religious values. It is therefore a complex and emotional issue with no easy, immediate solutions.

I always find it interesting how the secular fads of the day are always “complex” to the point of suggesting illogical things have merit.

 

[St_Francis]

This idea of delusion does not accord well with the experience of persons suffering badly from dysphoria. They have no delusions as to their physical attributes, nature,etc. They are not believing something about themselves that is objectively false (as does the delusional napoleon). They are suffering a dissonance between their body (which they recognise for what it is) and their brain which seems to be working from a different premise. Science is yet to understand what drives this; and why it sometimes arises at a very early age.

But there are several conditions which do this, and the others are recognized as delusions, most particularly, bodily intergration disorder (iirc), where the person thinks he ought to be disabled. So the fact that it is not a delusion like I am Napoleon doesn’t mean it’s not a delusion. Just because something feels a certain way, and it feels real, doesn’t mean it’s not a delusion.

Also, most of the youngsters who “are transgender” at an early age grow out of it, or at least have in the past.

 

[Rau]

But there are several conditions which do this, and the others are recognized as delusions, most particularly, bodily intergration disorder (iirc), where the person thinks he ought to be disabled. So the fact that it is not a delusion like I am Napoleon doesn’t mean it’s not a delusion. Just because something feels a certain way, and it feels real, doesn’t mean it’s not a delusion

Bodily integrity disorder is not consistently (if at all) regarded as a delusion.
ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4094630/

“A robust change of orientation took place in 2005, when Michael First published the first systematic study of a consistent sample of individuals who desired amputation of a healthy limb.2 Structured interviews were conducted via telephone with 52 subjects who desired amputation (only four were female). None of the subjects in the study were delusional, and all except one presented the onset of the desire during childhood…”

There is scientific opinion that this disorder is traceable to a neurological defect in a part of the brain which establishes a model of our physical self.

ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/19132621/
*“Neurological results suggest that BIID is a brain disorder producing a disruption of the body image, for which parallels for stroke patients are known.” *

 

[meltzerboy]

Bodily integrity disorder is not consistently (if at all) regarded as a delusion.
ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4094630/

“A robust change of orientation took place in 2005, when Michael First published the first systematic study of a consistent sample of individuals who desired amputation of a healthy limb.2 Structured interviews were conducted via telephone with 52 subjects who desired amputation (only four were female). None of the subjects in the study were delusional, and all except one presented the onset of the desire during childhood…”

Delusional or not, body integrity identity disorder is still a disorder!

 

[Rau]

Delusional or not, body integrity identity disorder is still a disorder!

Certainly.

 

[xNoOnex]

I often wonder if there would be less people coming out as transgendered if we didn’t confuse the biological aspects of sex with social and cultural constructs.

Young men have frequently been told that real boys don’t cry, the toys that we give our children to play with are said to be for either boys or girls, or that fashion is restricted… If someone is always told that they are acting like the wrong sex, maybe they’ll start thinking they are the wrong sex.

 

[JimG]

I often wonder if there would be less people coming out as transgendered if we didn’t confuse the biological aspects of sex with social and cultural constructs.

Young men have frequently been told that real boys don’t cry, the toys that we give our children to play with are said to be for either boys or girls, or that fashion is restricted… If someone is always told that they are acting like the wrong sex, maybe they’ll start thinking they are the wrong sex.

I agree with this observation. There are obviously two sexes—male and female. How a person feels about being male or female can vary widely. I know of two sisters, for example, one of whom can be labeled as a ‘girly girl,’ and that’s how she likes it. Her sister is more in tune with typically male activities, but that doesn’t make her think she is a man. She’s a woman with her own personality. Feelings vary all over the place, sex, with rare genetic exceptions, is fixed.

 

[billcu1]

I agree with this observation. There are obviously two sexes—male and female. How a person feels about being male or female can vary widely. I know of two sisters, for example, one of whom can be labeled as a ‘girly girl,’ and that’s how she likes it. Her sister is more in tune with typically male activities, but that doesn’t make her think she is a man. She’s a woman with her own personality. Feelings vary all over the place, sex, with rare genetic exceptions, is fixed.

IDK myself if I were a toddler or young child, and someone told me if I were male to act like a man or young adult. I would do so. And strive to identify with that. To do otherwise and feel or try to do the opposite. Would be an error I believe. I don’t know anything about case history’s of course of transgender people as children or otherwise.

Sorry this is supposed to be in answer to post #29.

 

[xNoOnex]

IDK myself if I were a toddler or young child, and someone told me if I were male to act like a man or young adult. I would do so. And strive to identify with that. To do otherwise and feel or try to do the opposite. Would be an error I believe. I don’t know anything about case history’s of course of transgender people as children or otherwise.

Sorry this is supposed to be in answer to post #29.

As a young child, I did a lot of things most people would consider “girly”. I had no male friends until about second grade, so I played a lot of house with the female friends I had. Maybe most people could ignore that… But I also loved My Little Pony and She-Ra: Princess of Power. And so many stuffed animals. Sure, I also had He-Men in my toy chest… And later, G.I. Joe… Next to a collection of troll dolls I look back at now with a bit of confusion.

I also cried a lot. Because I didn’t fit in with what most people thought little boys should be, I got picked on. I even heard “boys don’t cry”. But never from my parents.

But I never didn’t identify as a boy and now I have the one most iconic of “manly” traits; a full beard.

And what’s considered masculine and feminine changes from culture and time; the Scots wear kilts, something most cultures would consider a skirt… And once upon a time, men wore high heels. Things change… Yet sometimes we focus too much on what is artificial and what we created and mix that with what is “natural”.

 

[billcu1]

As a young child, I did a lot of things most people would consider “girly”. I had no male friends until about second grade, so I played a lot of house with the female friends I had. Maybe most people could ignore that… But I also loved My Little Pony and She-Ra: Princess of Power. And so many stuffed animals. Sure, I also had He-Men in my toy chest… And later, G.I. Joe… Next to a collection of troll dolls I look back at now with a bit of confusion.

I also cried a lot. Because I didn’t fit in with what most people thought little boys should be, I got picked on. I even heard “boys don’t cry”. But never from my parents.

But I never didn’t identify as a boy and now I have the one most iconic of “manly” traits; a full beard.

And what’s considered masculine and feminine changes from culture and time; the Scots wear kilts, something most cultures would consider a skirt… And once upon a time, men wore high heels. Things change… Yet sometimes we focus too much on what is artificial and what we created and mix that with what is “natural”.

Sometimes people do funny things and “grow out of it”. Maybe we are confused for a while, then change. I’ve had my own little quirks. I had a cousin when he was a child he had only Barbie stuff and wore purses. IDK what was going on their. He’s since grown up. He has had girlfriends I assume he’s not gay or bi or anything. And I’m sure there’s people who wouldn’t have done those things that are gay or transgender or whatever they believe.

 

[xNoOnex]

Sometimes people do funny things and “grow out of it”. Maybe we are confused for a while, then change. I’ve had my own little quirks. I had a cousin when he was a child he had only Barbie stuff and wore purses. IDK what was going on their. He’s since grown up. He has had girlfriends I assume he’s not gay or bi or anything. And I’m sure there’s people who wouldn’t have done those things that are gay or transgender or whatever they believe.

That’s just my point. People often grow out of weird things they do when they are kids and even as adults often have quirks that don’t traditionally fit what people consider masculine and feminine roles.

But what if a child, who just likes to play with Barbies, is told he can’t because that sort of thing is for girls? What if he’s later told that he shouldn’t cry, because that’s something boys don’t do? He grows up, feeling conflicted, feeling like he doesn’t belong… And then discovers there’s people who call themselves transgendered… Suddenly, things make sense to him.

Would they, if he wasn’t judged as a child and told that he had to fit certian molds? I mean, I know a lot of “tomboys” that hate dresses, act like most people think guys should act, but they are entirely female and don’t think they are men… Largely because they had parents that supported them being what they wanted to be.

 

[xNoOnex]

I agree with this observation. There are obviously two sexes—male and female. How a person feels about being male or female can vary widely. I know of two sisters, for example, one of whom can be labeled as a ‘girly girl,’ and that’s how she likes it. Her sister is more in tune with typically male activities, but that doesn’t make her think she is a man. She’s a woman with her own personality. Feelings vary all over the place, sex, with rare genetic exceptions, is fixed.

Right. I also think this is part of the reason why there is more male to female transgendered people, than female to male… In general, girls can be “tomboys”, but boys get told they can’t like “girly” things.

I think society, even when well meaning, can hurt people at times when it comes to things like this.

 

[1990Domer]

Yes, this is called neuroplasticity. Used to be that scientists thought our brains kind of hardened at a certsin point, and, for example, if a person had a brain injury, that was it. Then they discovered that people who recovered from brain injuries were actually re-wiring their brains, and that the brain remains “plastic” throughout one’s life. Some things are, of course, too big of a change, but many things we do affect the brain’s physiology.

One thing they have been discovering is that thinking depressing thoughts and having a depressed neurophysiology go hand-in-hand, and if you teach a depressed person certsin thinking strategies, they will become less deoressed *and their brain will change. *

The result is, I always wonder which comes first: the thinking or the anatomy? when people say, oh, but it’s a real thing, their brains are different.

I disagree about neuroplasticity. It doesn’t hold water in cases of autism or Alzheimer’s. The brain may very slowly and with a lot of therapy use different neuro pathways, but this research is not without controversy. And many scam doctors are making big money off of parents whose child was diagnosed with autism.

 

[ATraveller]

When it comes to childhood gender dysphoria, the vast majority end up being satisfied with their biological sex. If parents encourage their children to identify as the opposite gender, they are more likely to continue to be gender dysphoric and seek physical changes. Those who encourage their children to identify with their biological sex, the vast majority of them grow up to accept their gender. Most suicides among gender dysphoric teens are actually caused other factors not the dysphoria itself.
There was a BBC documentary on this (the above paragraph is from what it presented) but unfortunately it’s not online anymore. The evidence from experts go against practically everything the activists have pushed for. I started this thread last month on this documentary and contains a number of useful links including studies mentioned in the documentary and descriptions of the stories of parents in the documentary:
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=1047397
Shortcuts to the posts with the links:
forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=14570812&postcount=5
forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=14570845&postcount=6
forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=14571980&postcount=7

 

[buffalo]

Truth vs. Transgenderism Sparks Raging Debate at Bloomsburg University

When pro-transgender college students claim they can morph from male to female at will and “force” their biology to change overnight to satisfy a feeling, it’s easy to understand how Gender Ideology is harming critical thought and twisting the truth about human nature.
To challenge the transgender movement’s claims, TFP Student Action volunteers visited Bloomsburg University in Pennsylvania on April 24, 2017. What they witnessed and captured on film during their peaceful demonstration is revealing.

 

[Rau]

Truth vs. Transgenderism Sparks Raging Debate at Bloomsburg University

When pro-transgender college students claim they can morph from male to female at will and “force” their biology to change overnight to satisfy a feeling, it’s easy to understand how Gender Ideology is harming critical thought and twisting the truth about human nature.
To challenge the transgender movement’s claims, TFP Student Action volunteers visited Bloomsburg University in Pennsylvania on April 24, 2017. What they witnessed and captured on film during their peaceful demonstration is revealing.

It revealed much immaturity - on both sides.

 

[SuperLuigi]

Delusional or not, body integrity identity disorder is still a disorder!

For now. But I’m sure the perpetual civil rights activists will get around to it and bully and dox those who disagree.

Really, the lid has been blown off and the sky is the limit.