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Faith1960
Guest
Assuming this is true, this is a problem for those who feel that God has given each person with one gender and there are no mistakes in their development.
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GEddie
Guest
Even if true, these anomalies (for that is what they are) say nothing at all about those who are solidly one gender, physically, yet feel they have the wrong body.Assuming this is true, this is a problem for those who feel that God has given each person with one gender and there are no mistakes in their development.
ICXC NIKA
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Faith1960
Guest
True, but I was responding to those in life who say that God made each person of one gender or another. Apparently, this isn’t the case.Even if true, these anomalies (for that is what they are) say nothing at all about those who are solidly one gender, physically, yet feel they have the wrong body.
ICXC NIKA
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SwizzleStick
Guest
One gender would have to be decided upon by means available.Please research the facts of the issue so that you realize you are making an error. For example, in mosaicism a person can be born with some cells containing 46,XX chromosomes and other cells containing 46,XY chromosomes. They can produce a mixture of male and female sexual characteristics. There are several such sex-gender variants which are not easily categorized as male or female.
Are we going in circles? I’ll just quote myself from another thread.
SwizzleStick said:Yes.
Surgery is sometimes necessary. Sometimes a baby is born with a birth issue so that it is hard to determine what sex he or she is at birth. Testing would determine the answer so that surgery could be performed to correct the issue and go on from there. But, some want to mutilate a perfectly healthy body and pump it full of hormones so that some can live as the opposite sex. I think that that is a mental health issue and needs to be addressed as such.
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Faith1960
Guest
What if they determine that the person has a chromosomal abnormality and was born with both male and female genes?One gender would have to be decided upon by means available.
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Dakota_Roberts
Guest
There are cases of people have female genitals “transform” into “male genitals”, but AFAIK never the other way around.The correct term is “intersex” not hermaphrodite. As a matter of fact, gender and sexuality are not always clear. Sometimes, people are born with XXY chromosomes instead of XX or XY. Those individuals often have mixed sexual characteristics (they are not true hermaphrodites).
The following Christian website has a brief explanation of the many sex-gender variance conditions which exist. Some individuals are even born with one set of genitalia and then grow the other genitalia during puberty. This is rare, but well documented fact.
transchristians.org/intersex/intersex-conditions
Not if one assumes God’s passive will like Catholicism.Assuming this is true, this is a problem for those who feel that God has given each person with one gender and there are no mistakes in their development.
Passive will.True, but I was responding to those in life who say that God made each person of one gender or another. Apparently, this isn’t the case.
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Faith1960
Guest
I’m sorry, can you elaborate?There are cases of people have female genitals “transform” into “male genitals”, but AFAIK never the other way around.
Not if one assumes God’s passive will like Catholicism.
Passive will.
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Dakota_Roberts
Guest
Which part?I’m sorry, can you elaborate?
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SwizzleStick
Guest
If that is true, surely medical professionals in the field would use their expertise and pick a gender one way or the other? Maybe they choose incorrectly sometimes, I don’t know, but that would have to be a pretty rare event.What if they determine that the person has a chromosomal abnormality and was born with both male and female genes?
Some folks support surgery and hormore treatment for people who have no such issues, who are physically perfectly healthy, but feel they are the opposite gender and want to alter themselves accordingly. Seems to me that that issue should be addressed through therapy. That makes sense to me. Surgery and a complete alteration of someone’s body and life does not.
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Faith1960
Guest
I agree with you.Some folks support surgery and hormore treatment for people who have no such issues, who are physically perfectly healthy, but feel they are the opposite gender and want to alter themselves accordingly. Seems to me that that issue should be addressed through therapy. That makes sense to me. Surgery and a complete alteration of someone’s body and life does not.
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Faith1960
Guest
Where you wrote:Which part?
<<<<Not if one assumes God’s passive will like Catholicism.
Passive will.>>>>
I’m not sure I underestand what you mean.
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Viviphilia
Guest
Gender and sex variance exists in varying degrees which are difficult, if not impossible to measure. It is uncharitable to assume authority over another person’s gender.Even if true, these anomalies (for that is what they are) say nothing at all about those who are solidly one gender, physically, yet feel they have the wrong body.
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Viviphilia
Guest
The only moral means available for determining gender are by asking the person what their gender is. If you would please read the history of the type of surgery you are suggesting, I’m confident that you are wise enough that when you look back upon the errors you are currently making, you will feel regret.One gender would have to be decided upon by means available.
Clinical implications of the organizational and activational effects of hormones
Milton Diamond
Hormones and Behavior 55 (2009) 621–632
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Viviphilia
Guest
I have heard of a single case which is unverified.There are cases of people have female genitals “transform” into “male genitals”, but AFAIK never the other way around.
lifeafterdawn.wordpress.com/2012/05/12/the-numbers-dont-lie/
However, I’m glad to see an acknowledgement of the fact that sometimes sex changes spontaneously during a person’s life. People should understand that although these cases are very rare, they require our compassion, not condemnation.
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GEddie
Guest
I don’t think anybody is condemning anything.I have heard of a single case which is unverified.
lifeafterdawn.wordpress.com/2012/05/12/the-numbers-dont-lie/
However, I’m glad to see an acknowledgement of the fact that sometimes sex changes spontaneously during a person’s life. People should understand that although these cases are very rare, they require our compassion, not condemnation.
One difference between the anomaly cases and the social phenomena of transgender is that anomaly cases normally do not become a public issue, whereas the “wrong body” instances often do.
While I remain convinced that “feeling you have the wrong body” is a delusion rather than a true condition, I would never condemn the actions someone had taken.
ICXC NIKA
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Viviphilia
Guest
Yes, medical professionals do choose wrongly sometimes, that’s why the practice of correcting intersex conditions was abandoned by the medical community. Doctors understand that gender is determined by the individual, not by what’s between one’s legs.If that is true, surely medical professionals in the field would use their expertise and pick a gender one way or the other? Maybe they choose incorrectly sometimes, I don’t know, but that would have to be a pretty rare event.
No one is “perfectly healthy.” You have no idea if a person has “such issues” or not, and it isn’t up to you to decide.Some folks support surgery and hormore treatment for people who have no such issues, who are physically perfectly healthy, but feel they are the opposite gender and want to alter themselves accordingly. Seems to me that that issue should be addressed through therapy. That makes sense to me. Surgery and a complete alteration of someone’s body and life does not.
You want to force surgery on a young child without the child’s consent and without regard for which gender the intersex child might prefer. Yet you are against adults deciding which surgery and gender they would prefer. Why do you feel a need to dictate to other people what their gender is or what therapy they should pursue?
You claim that a certain treatment makes sense to you, yet you have clearly not read the history of the treatments you’re talking about. Why not educate yourself on the facts of the issue, and then think about what makes sense?
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Viviphilia
Guest
In the last two weeks, I have seen transgenderism condemned as a “deviance” and a “perversion” several times on this forum.I don’t think anybody is condemning anything.
Transgender and intersex frequently overlap. Sometimes intersex individuals realize they should be the other gender from what they were assigned at birth, and they transition. The reason transgender is more in the news than intersex is because transsexuality has been incorrectly thought of as a mental diagnosis. Now that transgender is understood to be in a spectrum of sex-gender variance, it could be the case that all or most transgender individuals could be classified as intersex. Transgender is an intersex condition of the brain - “intergender” might be a more appropriate term.One difference between the anomaly cases and the social phenomena of transgender is that anomaly cases normally do not become a public issue, whereas the “wrong body” instances often do.
A delusion is a belief which is held with strong conviction despite strong evidence otherwise. Most transsexuals are in deep denial about their gender before they are forced by some facts to face the fact that they are transsexual. Transsexuality is the opposite of a delusion.While I remain convinced that “feeling you have the wrong body” is a delusion rather than a true condition, I would never condemn the actions someone had taken.
I’m glad you feel you would never condemn transgender individuals and I thank you for expressing your sympathy.
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Dakota_Roberts
Guest
The is what God actively does and there is what God lets do itself. The problems of the world are the result of original sin, that’s why there are errors in reproduction, God permits it to happen, he doesn’t actively mess around with reproduction.Where you wrote:
<<<<Not if one assumes God’s passive will like Catholicism.
Passive will.>>>>
I’m not sure I underestand what you mean.
It’s written incomprehensiblyI have heard of a single case which is unverified.
lifeafterdawn.wordpress.com/2012/05/12/the-numbers-dont-lie/
However, I’m glad to see an acknowledgement of the fact that sometimes sex changes spontaneously during a person’s life. People should understand that although these cases are very rare, they require our compassion, not condemnation.
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Viviphilia
Guest
From the link:It’s written incomprehensibly
No, I have not had surgery to alter my male anatomy, but those parts have atrophied and retracted to the point that there’s an “innie” where I used to have an “outie.”
The individual has reported being very suicidal and is obviously under great distress. Her attempts to blog about her experience leave much to be desired. There are a lot of problems with this case, that is why I said the report is unverified.
Either way, we both understand that there are well documented cases of individuals being born with a vagina and growing a penis during puberty. This clearly shows that the “male - female gender dichotomy” is not truly a dichotomy, but a spectrum with many variations.
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exnihilo
Guest
I’m still confused as to how someone knows they are the opposite sex from what their physical organs indicate. Seems to me the criteria is something trivial like the person enjoyed wearing the clothes or playing with toys frequently associated with the opposite sex. Such a definition is certainly at odds with the rest of modern thinking which claims there is no difference between the sexes and that there is nothing strange about a woman who wants to be like a man. If transgenderism is true then there is something wrong with a woman who wants to be like a man. I find it amazing the contradictory ideas floating around in the minds of modern man.A delusion is a belief which is held with strong conviction despite strong evidence otherwise. Most transsexuals are in deep denial about their gender before they are forced by some facts to face the fact that they are transsexual. Transsexuality is the opposite of a delusion.
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