Transitional Fossils and the Theory of Evolution in relation to Genesis Accounts

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In these instances, belief that these miracles occurred means that life arose from non-life with no need for evolution.
I hope that you do not believe that life arose from non-life. God is a living God, so if He created life on earth then life arose from life.

The science of the origin of material life is abiogenesis, not evolution. Abiogenesis is still an open problem in science; evolution is much more settled with a huge amount of supporting evidence. If you try to argue against evolution then you will find that you are arguing against a massive quantity of evidence.
 
That is the crux of you argument? The god of BUC is simpler?
Google “Occam’s Razor”. The simplest sufficient explanation is preferred. There is no point in adding unnecessary complexity to a solution.

It is up to you to show evidence that the additional complexity is necessary.
 
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Buzzard3:
Theistic Darwinists are a mysterious breed - they defend their theory with religious fanaticism, as if it’s vitally important to believe that God used neo-Darwinian mechanisms to create the history of life on earth. I can understand atheists being so fanatical, but I can’t figure out why theistic evos subscribe so obediently to this useless myth… it’s all too bizarre for my little mind to figure out.
Perhaps they have professional reasons for joining the cult of Darwinism.
There are many things I am smart enough to not say right now. However, I will say that throughout this thread, all you have done is ridicule evidence, then ignore any refutation of your claims. You defend whatever your theory is without question or open mind, something you accuse us of despite never actually addressing any of the problems in your theory, all while we address the issues you see in ours.

Your last line of defense is to repeatedly call it “mythical” and "fairy-tale"ish because you’ve finally run out of evidence, or at least it appears so. The fun part about being right is we could go on all day debunking your arguments without resorting to other strategies, but it appears you cannot.

I at least hope others see through the charade.
About a couple of years back my wife and I were out shopping and, would you believe it, someone had set up a flat earth exhibition on a street corner. Hey, I thought. This’ll be interesting. So my wife headed off to the shops and I wandered over for a chat to these guys. Asked them things like why we couldn’t see the North Star from Australia and why the moon is upside down in London compared to the view in Sydney. We had a nice discussion.

Then I met up with my wife and related what they’d been saying and that we’d had a pleasant chat. She just raised an eyebrow and said: ‘Why bother talking to them at all? You just wanted to to show that their ideas were dumb so you could feel superior’.

Now I’m not saying that she was right. But she’s quite a smart woman.
 
Then I met up with my wife and related what they’d been saying and that we’d had a pleasant chat. She just raised an eyebrow and said: ‘Why bother talking to them at all? You just wanted to to show that their ideas were dumb so you could feel superior’.
I have my reasons. Perhaps I’m kidding myself. Don’t think there’s a way to really know. In any case, I’ll keep doing what I’ve done, because I have no real reason to give up.
 
I suppose someone can navigate this life while believing in a flat earth. In the greater scheme of things, it really doesn’t matter if they believe something so obviously false. In their case, are they are either doing so for religious reasons or because they just like to believe they have some superior knowledge and like feeling contrary to established science?

In the case of evolution the problem is that it’s only the religious, and few of them at that, that deny evolution. Because they have a vision of God and a text that they are sure must be exactly correct, they insist evolution is false. They have no other hypothesis other than God magically created “kinds” which can not change but may adapt. No definition of kinds. No other system that God used. No ability to give evidence of another method. Just a God Did It! A smaller God at that! They limit what and how God can create…all because of Genesis and their reading of it.

In the grander scheme it probably makes little difference as long as they don’t try to push their readings onto education of our children. I’ve no problem with it being taught in a religious education class but a science class? That’s a big problem as it’s strictly a theological view that tries to sound sciency. The Catholic Church doesn’t even teach it as science though they allow belief in it. They don’t put it into their science program but keep it in their theology class as well. But, that makes some of their believers quite unhappy. They want their theology to be the only one or at least be given pride of place within science. It doesn’t belong there. The church is smarter than that.

If some want to believe in creationism I’m fine with it but, they still need to learn what they’re rejecting. The ignorance of evolution is a problem. Disagree all you want but please, learn what it actually is and what it actually claims. Even flat earthers know the arguments for a spherical earth!
 
You seem to not understand how big scientific theories work. We don’t “test” them so much as we say “This is what we think happened” and collect evidence that supports that.
Yet you claim to “know” how life evolved.
See, you say that, but every example you give of this is debunked by us presenting evidence.
The Cambrian explosion is an obvious example of God leaving his “fingerprints” in the rocks, but theistic Darwinists seem determined to deny this evidence of special creation.
You’re so smart, why don’t you give us one?
I’m smart enough to know that it’s pointless offering a theory for what is unknowable. I’m happy to let the unknowable remain what it will always be – a mystery.
If you knew anything about embryology, you’d know that hearts form the same way: Embryonic blood vessels combine to form the heart. Genetic studies have shown mutations of the instructions for this combination have resulted in more complex hearts among Amphibians and amniotes.
So, the fact that the human heart, for example, initially forms a embryological “primordial heart tube” is evidence that humans evolved from fish. Wow, talk about quack science. If we apply your logic to other structures, we can conclude that the first houses built by man consisted of only foundations – a masterpiece of deduction.

Dobzhansky was clever too – he believed the human foetus had “gills”, which he concluded was evidence that humans evolved from fish! Darwinism would be sad if wasn’t so entertaining.
 
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Your mind reading powers have failed you. I am Buddhist and I believe that same thing about the origin of life as Christians do: life has existed eternally. Or do you think that is a ‘fantasy’?
This is a bit vague - Christians have very different beliefs about the origin of life - some Christians believe in a literal six days of creation, for example
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Do you believe a god created the first life-form?
The human eye is very similar to the chimpanzee eye. We inherited our eyes from our common ancestor with the chimps. We do have a few minor differences – chimps do not have blue eyes – but we have the same basic eye as our ancestors.
That’s tells me next to nothing about how the human eye evolved. Darwinists love vague answers when it comes to the actual nuts-and-bolts of how novel organs evolved - such vague answers are code for “All I know is, evolution dunnit” - ie, blind faith.
 
That depends on where you are “throwing” the creator in, yes?
I would imagine the creator was present at every step of his creation. He did not set the machines rolling and come back a million years later to see what they produced.
If Christians want to say that God was the initial giver of the process of evolution, I have no argument or problem.
I think science how zero chance of explaining what process was responsible for the history of life on earth.
I actually don’t have a problem with God directing the random mutations as long as everyone admits that He made them look totally random so we can’t tell the difference and there is no way currently to determine random from supernatural.
How do you know what the genetic landscape was like millions of years ago? You seem to assume is was exactly the same as it is today. Thousands of years of animal and plant breeding suggest that genus-genus evolution is impossible. It could be that the evolutionary process God used before Adam has ceased.
If God made humans special, it sure would have been nice if He had used unique material for humans that are not used by every other creature so we could actually give credit where credit is due.
Genetic similarities don’t prove Darwin’s tree of common descent is a fact.
But God has evolution looking exactly like a natural process throughout and whatever He did
The Cambrian explosion and other conspicuous gaps in the fossils record look like the result of a “natural process”? You could have fooled me!
, wherever He did it sure looks exactly like Him not doing anything detectable.
What “natural process” was responsible for the existence of the human brain?

Explain how a double-circulation heart (amphibian) could have evolved from a single-circulation heart (fish) via a “natural process”.

What “natural process” explains how organisms with fully-formed back-bones suddenly appear in the fossil record without any evolutionary antecedents. What “natural process” explains why there are no transitiional fossils between invertebrates and vertebrates?

Gunter Bechly, a world-renowned paleontologist who has published more than 170 scientific papers, has discovered more than 170 new insect species and has 11 biological groups name in this honour, claims insects appear suddenly in the fossil record with no evidence of transitional antecedents. Which “natural process” explains how insects appear suddenly in the fossil record?
 
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This is a bit vague - Christians have very different beliefs about the origin of life - some Christians believe in a literal six days of creation, for example
All Christians believe that their God is a living God. All Christians also believe that their God is eternal. Hence all Christians believe that life is eternal; life has always existed because the living God has always existed.
 
All Christians believe that their God is a living God. All Christians also believe that their God is eternal. Hence all Christians believe that life is eternal; life has always existed because the living God has always existed.
How do you think the first life-forms come to exist? Were the created by a god, or did they appear naturally?
 
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rossum:
Your mind reading powers have failed you. I am Buddhist and I believe that same thing about the origin of life as Christians do: life has existed eternally. Or do you think that is a ‘fantasy’?
such vague answers are code for “All I know is, evolution dunnit” - ie, blind faith.
Keeping it vague :roll_eyes:
 
Yet you claim to “know” how life evolved.
We have a really good guess.
The Cambrian explosion is an obvious example of God leaving his “fingerprints” in the rocks, but theistic Darwinists seem determined to deny this evidence of special creation.
Or, just a thought…it’s not a problem for evolutionary theory, your sources lied, and you’re the one who can’t let it go.
I’m smart enough to know that it’s pointless offering a theory for what is unknowable. I’m happy to let the unknowable remain what it will always be – a mystery.
Yeah, intelligence is giving up when so many clues are staring us right in the face.
So, the fact that the human heart, for example, initially forms a embryological “primordial heart tube” is evidence that humans evolved from fish.
No, it’s a direct refutation to your claim that heart evolution was impossible. It’s not evidence for evolution, it’s a refutation of your claim against it.
Thousands of years of animal and plant breeding suggest that genus-genus evolution is impossible.
Okay, let me explain this for you. Evolution doesn’t happen in an environment which completely lacks selective pressures. Cultivated plants and animals have their every need catered to, and are only selectively bred for certain characteristics, so they’re not cut off from other members of their species long enough to diverge. There is no reason for cultivated crops or animals to evolve, and you not realizing that is even more evidence that you’re running short on ideas.
Genetic similarities don’t prove Darwin’s tree of common descent is a fact.
Nothing proves it. It points to such a reality, though, along with all the other evidence.
The Cambrian explosion and other conspicuous nonexistent gaps in the fossils record
Fixed that for you.
What “natural process” was responsible for the existence of the human brain?
All chordates have brains. It’s just the central processing unit of the animal. Our evolutionary ancestors with larger brains were better able to survive because we are a relatively weak species that evolved in a very competitive and harsh environment. Bigger brains gave us the ability to create fire, which gave us the ability to grow even bigger brains because we finally had the energy. Tool use and learning by example are common traits among certain animal groups like primates and corvids. We just took it a step further because our bodies, already adapted to life in grassland, happened to be conducive to fire and tool use.
 
Which “natural process” explains how insects appear suddenly in the fossil record?
If we assume that this is a 100% correct source with no motivations, biases, or flaws whatsoever, I would simply say that the reason many insects suddenly appear is that insects aren’t preserved well, so we are just missing many prehistoric insect species.
Explain how a double-circulation heart (amphibian) could have evolved from a single-circulation heart (fish) via a “natural process”.
Simple mutations change the body’s development instructions on how to link together blood vessels in embryonic development. These new hearts provided survival advantages to Amphibians and, later, mammals, so they were kept. Things like extra heart valves and tissues are well documented among modern humanity, and our species is very young. There’s no reason that other, older prehistoric animal species could have changed this way as well.
What “natural process” explains how organisms with fully-formed back-bones suddenly appear in the fossil record without any evolutionary antecedents.
You must be reading really old sources, because ancestors to vertebrates have been found all over the world and are a well-documented group. Most appeared to have small, semi-formed backbones composed of cartilage rather than bone, which likely hardened as a result of a mutation to form jawless fish, the very first vertebrates.

There. Debunked all your points. If they’retoo vague, tell me what needs more explanation so you stop calling everything vague. Now, can you come up with any new ones?

Oh, and can you provide any evidence that positively proves your own theory of instantaneous Divine creation?
 
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How do you think the first life-forms come to exist? Were the created by a god, or did they appear naturally?
At Savatthi. There the Blessed One said: “From an inconstruable beginning comes transmigration. A beginning point is not evident, though beings hindered by ignorance and fettered by craving are transmigrating and wandering on.”

Assu sutta, Samyutta Nikaya 15.3
Life has always existed in the Buddhist universe.
 
Science will go for the least complex possibility until more evidence comes along. An Intelligent Designer is more complex than evolution, so science goes with evolution until the evidence shows otherwise.
I wish that contemporary science would go with the least complex possibility and that would be Almighty God as the Intelligent Designer.

Almighty God gets the job done in six days. Then, Almighty God is finished with Creation but continues to provide Providential, Intelligent and Loving care. That’s not complex.

Evolution requires at least a billion years with lots and lots of trial and error, blind and random mutations, many billions of deaths by natural selection. Per today’s standard paradigm, evolution is still not done and there is no providential, intelligent and loving care for what’s been created. Via an asteroid or other unseen cosmological catastrophe, we could be wiped out at any time. That’s complex.
 
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