Transitional Fossils and the Theory of Evolution in relation to Genesis Accounts

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whatistrue said:
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Techno2000:
Just think of how many Fit/Unfit environmental scenarios
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It never was “survival of the fit” but rather survival of the fittest". Do you still not get the difference? Short version is that mere survival is not the issue, but rather it is more descendants.
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The point is, you’re going to need millions of different kinds of environmental change scenarios all working together in perfect harmony to produce the diversity of the millions of plants and animals we have on Earth.

PS… nothing like this happen in the real world: Winter Spring,Summer and Fall if it can’t survive it dies…end of story.
 
Techno2000 said:
The point is, you’re going to need millions of different kinds of environmental change scenarios all working together in perfect harmony to produce the diversity of the millions of plants and animals we have on Earth.
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No. When the environment changes, organisms evolve to deal with those changes, or else they go extinct. So, any organisms alive today are reasonabley well adjusted to their environments; the less well adjusted went extinct.

Your “perfect harmony” is wrong as well. As the joke says: “Your knees have evolved to carry half your weight. The problem is that they expect your elbows to carry the other half.” We have still not completely adapted to an upright stance.
 
whatistrue said:
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Techno2000:
The point is, you’re going to need millions of different kinds of environmental change scenarios all working together in perfect harmony
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False, and shown to be false repeatedly. Please get better sources.
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There are millions of species of fungi…that’s just fungi… do you want to go down the list of species?
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whatistrue said:
That would be one of the debunked claims, yes.
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No, that’s not debunked. The environment does need to change in order for animals to evolve, in some way. But environment changes are a really common occurrence for populations.
 
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Not really. One branch of a group developing a new method of accessing, for example, a food source denied to their cousins, or a better camouflage technique resulting in losing fewer members to predation, all in a relatively stable environment, will work as well. Winning more works as well as losing less.
 
whatistrue said:
One branch of a group developing a new method of accessing, for example, a food source denied to their cousins,
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Which is a change in environment
whatistrue said:
or a better camouflage technique resulting in losing fewer members to predation,
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Why would the new camo be better if the climate hasn’t changed at all? Something changed in the climate which induced a race for success, and even if that race still occurs long after the change, it’s still caused by that environmental change. If everyone is doing fine in the current environment, then there’s no evolution because all manner of mutations are mixed together by mating. That’s why humans aren’t really evolving much; there’s no big genetic competition because there’s no selective pressures.
 
I don’t really see how such changes could lead to full speciation, if they happened at all. If the climate was full steady, genetic mixing would dilute mutations to such an extent that speciation wouldn’t occur.
 
I will state that it is likely very rare, but I do contend that it is possible.
 
Could we at least agree that most speciation events and large evolutionary booms came after climate shifts? I suppose if certain conditions were right, you could have speciation without significant environment changes.
 
Absolutely environment change is by far the most common trigger. But that could mean many more things than just climate. Loss of a major competitor is an environmental change. Say that most of the members of species A, which occupies a specific niche in an environment, catch a new disease and die off. That leaves a niche open and could trigger competition to fill it. Climate is the same, but the environment (which includes all of the life forms present) changes.
 
I think my main objection to your idea was a misconception based on my own understanding of speciation. Either way, neither one of us agrees with Techno.
 
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whatistrue said:
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Techno2000:
The point is, you’re going to need millions of different kinds of environmental change scenarios all working together in perfect harmony
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False, and shown to be false repeatedly. Please get better sources.
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I might point out (to Techno) that the climate is tremendously diverse as it is. Funghi (to use his example) will not be the same in costal areas v inland areas. Or wet environments v dry. Or high altitudes v low ones. Or nutrient rich v poor. Or shaded v sunny. Sandy v rocky. The variations even if the seasons and climate were static are uncountable.

If you want to mix those 12 variables then any combination will be factorial 12. Which is just short of half a billion. And I just scratched the surface regarding possible varients. Add changes just as subtle as a two degree temperature change and the combinations become too large to meaningfully measure. Even the conditions in my neighbour’s garden are significantly different to those in mine.

I think if you work on the understanding that some people that attend these tbreads really don’t understand the concept of evolution at a very basic level and work from there, you won’t go far wrong. We’re sometimes at the level of ‘if we descended from monkeys, how come there are still monkeys’.
 
Freddy said:
We’re sometimes at the level of ‘if we descended from monkeys, how come there are still monkeys’.
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To be fair, the old “progress of evolution” image of apes slowly getting upright does lead to this confusion. The Branch and Web model of today is much less confusing.
 
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