Transubstantiation and John 6

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JRKH said:
Mt 18:17-18 says “Tell it to the Church” and “Listen to the Church” for the Church has the authority to bind and loose whatever.

I say this not to counter your quote but to add to it. Yes the Spirit of Truth will guide one into all truth, but how does one know they are guided by the Spirit of Truth? Jesus gives us a way to “test the spirits”, in conversation and debate and prayerful reflection in the Community - the Church.

John 16:13 needs to be understood within the context of the unity of the Church that Jesus prayed for.

Peace
James
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The church that you claim Jesus prayed for doesn’t even recognise it’s brethren the Jew and the forever covenants for Israel (The Apple of God’s Eye) Zechariah 2:8. The church you proclaim to be the church Jesus prays for is a replacement church in it’s heretical theology and added teachings. Revelation 22:18-19. We can all be accused of being ignorant in many things pertaining to God ‘‘whose ways are not our ways and whose thoughts are not our thoughts’’ Isaiah 55:8-9 😦
 
harrisrose77 said:
I have not added any words to the Scripture of which I believe to be true (The Bible).
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You have added meaning that is not contained within the text as written. For nearing 2,000 years, its plain meaning was made clear by the beliefs and practices of the Church. The problem is that someone, by twisting scripture, has taught you a grievous theological error. Your denial of Christ in the Eucharist is a fairly recent development that has men’s names behind it. Does that concern you at all?

Never mind the Catholic Church. Please stop to consider that, in maintaining that your position is true, you declare that you and your bible have more knowledge and enlightenment that the Metropolitans and Patriarchs of the Eastern and Oriental Orthodox Churches - Churches which have existed since the time of Christ.

How can they all be wrong and you alone are right? Are you infallible?
 
harrisrose77 said:
The church that you claim Jesus prayed for doesn’t even recognise it’s brethren the Jew and the forever covenants for Israel (The Apple of God’s Eye) Zechariah 2:8. The church you proclaim to be the church Jesus prays for is a replacement church in it’s heretical theology and added teachings. Revelation 22:18-19. We can all be accused of being ignorant in many things pertaining to God ‘‘whose ways are not our ways and whose thoughts are not our thoughts’’ Isaiah 55:8-9 😦
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However, I do believe that God is faithful and just. I’m not against the regular laymen in this whole thing, who just wants to find the Truth of God, but I know my Lord is a God of love, and even in His love He will righteously divide the wheat from the tares. But by Grace I am saved through faith and not through works that I should boast.
Ephesians 2:8
 
harrisrose77 said:
However, I do believe that God is faithful and just. I’m not against the regular laymen in this whole thing, who just wants to find the Truth of God, but I know my Lord is a God of love, and even in His love He will righteously divide the wheat from the tares. But by Grace I am saved through faith and not through works that I should boast.
Ephesians 2:8
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Sorry; Not through works lest I boast. 🙂
 
harrisrose77 said:
The church that you claim Jesus prayed for doesn’t even recognise it’s brethren the Jew and the forever covenants for Israel (The Apple of God’s Eye) Zechariah 2:8. The church you proclaim to be the church Jesus prays for is a replacement church in it’s heretical theology and added teachings. Revelation 22:18-19. We can all be accused of being ignorant in many things pertaining to God ‘‘whose ways are not our ways and whose thoughts are not our thoughts’’ Isaiah 55:8-9 😦
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Why don’t you research what the first Christians believed. Once you look up church history for yourself you will have to abandon your heretical believe concerning the Eucharist.
 
InJesusItrust said:
Why don’t you research what the first Christians believed. Once you look up church history for yourself you will have to abandon your heretical believe concerning the Eucharist.
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What makes you think that I haven’t looked into the history of the church and the theological arguments? It’s quite arrogant of you to suggest that I haven’t…
 
harrisrose77 said:
The church that you claim Jesus prayed for doesn’t even recognize it’s brethren the Jew and the forever covenants for Israel (The Apple of God’s Eye) Zechariah 2:8. The church you proclaim to be the church Jesus prays for is a replacement church in it’s heretical theology and added teachings. Revelation 22:18-19. We can all be accused of being ignorant in many things pertaining to God ‘‘whose ways are not our ways and whose thoughts are not our thoughts’’ Isaiah 55:8-9 😦
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If you will take the time to reread my post, you will see that I specified no Church by name…I merely Quoted our Dear Lord Jesus Christ in Scripture.

I did so because it is important that the verse you presented from John16:13 be understood in the fuller context of what Jesus established. Taken by itself, John 16:13 can be used to support a completely personal - singular interpretation of Scripture by simply making the claim to be Spirit Guided. Seen within the context of Jesus own words in Matthew, we can see the wisdom of having the Church (ekklesia) as authority - as a check of our own understandings.

As to the other assertions…I cannot comment. Though I suspect others will…

I hope that you do not think of me as an enemy…

Peace
James
 
Nicea325:

And can ANYONE show me ONE writing outside the NT where it confirms the novelty of a symbolic Eucharist? By the way, give me one name during the first 500 years clearly teaching the Real Presence of the Eucharist was heretical or a great usurpation of Christ?

As of today…no evidence.
 
JRKH said:
If you will take the time to reread my post, you will see that I specified no Church by name…I merely Quoted our Dear Lord Jesus Christ in Scripture.

I did so because it is important that the verse you presented from John16:13 be understood in the fuller context of what Jesus established. Taken by itself, John 16:13 can be used to support a completely personal - singular interpretation of Scripture by simply making the claim to be Spirit Guided. Seen within the context of Jesus own words in Matthew, we can see the wisdom of having the Church (ekklesia) as authority - as a check of our own understandings.

As to the other assertions…I cannot comment. Though I suspect others will…

I hope that you do not think of me as an enemy…

Peace
James
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I think no man as my enemy, for our battle is not with flesh and blood. My enemy is God’s enemy - satan.
 
harrisrose77 said:
However, I do believe that God is faithful and just. I’m not against the regular laymen in this whole thing, who just wants to find the Truth of God, but I know my Lord is a God of love, and even in His love He will righteously divide the wheat from the tares. But by Grace I am saved through faith and not through works that I should boast.
Ephesians 2:8
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Here is a question that should be extremely uncomfortable for you to ponder: By what authority do you declare the various 2,000 year old Eastern Orthodox and Oriental Orthoddox Churches, and even Martin Luther to be in error while you are correct?

By what authority?
 
harrisrose77 said:
What makes you think that I haven’t looked into the history of the church and the theological arguments? It’s quite arrogant of you to suggest that I haven’t…
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The fact that you think the Eucharist is not real shows that you know not of what you speak or don’t understand the history you’ve read.

You have zeal, but not according to knowledge.
 
po18guy said:
Here is a question that should be extremely uncomfortable for you to ponder: By what authority do you declare the various 2,000 year old Eastern Orthodox and Oriental Orthoddox Churches, and even Martin Luther to be in error while you are correct?

By what authority?
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You mean a question that you hope to be uncomfortable for me to ponder. I can hear your indignation against me loud and clear Mr po18guy. My authority is my Lord Jesus, given to Him by the God -Head, and thus given to me to discern in these the latter days. I do not proclaim to know everything, for God Himself tells me I see through a ‘glass dimly’ until the fullness of time, when I am present with Him. I am a simple woman of no great intelligence and I don’t lay claim to any higher educational certificates. My only experience is life in this dark world, with my own ignorance and suffering, until god led me to my Saviour through my search for Him with all my heart. I don’t depend on the wisdom of man, unless I discern it’s of God. I am guilty of living with an unguided heart up until 11 years ago. I know of Luther and many more men of God, including those who your church put to death, including the Jews at the time of the crusades. I know enough to keep me wanting Christ more and more, because I recognise my need of Him so greatly. The church is today without walls, as more and more are falling from the Truth and mixing with other religions (mixed incense), which is an offence to God. His banner over me is Love and the World Church is developing a banner of it’s own kind, tolerating every doctrine in it’s plan to bring about a ‘One world Religion’ along with a ‘One world order’ But Jesus will not let it stand, for it is foretold in the book of Daniel that he will come and smash it, and bring His glorious Church with Him to reign with us…
 
JRKH said:
If you will take the time to reread my post, you will see that I specified no Church by name…I merely Quoted our Dear Lord Jesus Christ in Scripture.

I did so because it is important that the verse you presented from John16:13 be understood in the fuller context of what Jesus established. Taken by itself, John 16:13 can be used to support a completely personal - singular interpretation of Scripture by simply making the claim to be Spirit Guided. Seen within the context of Jesus own words in Matthew, we can see the wisdom of having the Church (ekklesia) as authority - as a check of our own understandings.

As to the other assertions…I cannot comment. Though I suspect others will…

I hope that you do not think of me as an enemy…

Peace
James
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James, it is mind-boggling to think that both sides of this argument are using the exact same scriptures! How could that old “supreme authority” fail us in our time of need? We hear constantly that the bible is the “final voice”, yet the discussion rages on. If only there was some authority who could decide for all the world, for all time, just what was true and correct.

This is a real stumper, huh?
 
harrisrose77 said:
You mean a question that you hope to be uncomfortable for me to ponder. I can hear your indignation against me loud and clear Mr po18guy. My authority is my Lord Jesus, given to Him by the God -Head, and thus given to me to discern in these the latter days. I do not proclaim to know everything, for God Himself tells me I see through a ‘glass dimly’ until the fullness of time, when I am present with Him. I am a simple woman of no great intelligence and I don’t lay claim to any higher educational certificates. My only experience is life in this dark world, with my own ignorance and suffering, until god led me to my Saviour through my search for Him with all my heart. I don’t depend on the wisdom of man, unless I discern it’s of God. I am guilty of living with an unguided heart up until 11 years ago. I know of Luther and many more men of God, including those who your church put to death, including the Jews at the time of the crusades. I know enough to keep me wanting Christ more and more, because I recognise my need of Him so greatly. The church is today without walls, as more and more are falling from the Truth and mixing with other religions (mixed incense), which is an offence to God. His banner over me is Love and the World Church is developing a banner of it’s own kind, tolerating every doctrine in it’s plan to bring about a ‘One world Religion’ along with a ‘One world order’ But Jesus will not let it stand, for it is foretold in the book of Daniel that he will come and smash it, and bring His glorious Church with Him to reign with us…
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Why should I beleive your authority over the authority of someone else?
 
harrisrose77 said:
The church that you claim Jesus prayed for doesn’t even recognise it’s brethren the Jew and the forever covenants for Israel (The Apple of God’s Eye) Zechariah 2:8. The church you proclaim to be the church Jesus prays for is a replacement church in it’s heretical theology and added teachings. Revelation 22:18-19. We can all be accused of being ignorant in many things pertaining to God ‘‘whose ways are not our ways and whose thoughts are not our thoughts’’ Isaiah 55:8-9 😦
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Not that’s a little uncharitable and I believe against forum rules. One might want to take a deep breathe before hitting submit. God Bless.
 
harrisrose77 said:
You mean a question that you hope to be uncomfortable for me to ponder. I can hear your indignation against me loud and clear Mr po18guy. My authority is my Lord Jesus, given to Him by the God -Head, and thus given to me to discern in these the latter days. I do not proclaim to know everything, for God Himself tells me I see through a ‘glass dimly’ until the fullness of time, when I am present with Him. I am a simple woman of no great intelligence and I don’t lay claim to any higher educational certificates. My only experience is life in this dark world, with my own ignorance and suffering, until god led me to my Saviour through my search for Him with all my heart. I don’t depend on the wisdom of man, unless I discern it’s of God. I am guilty of living with an unguided heart up until 11 years ago. I know of Luther and many more men of God, including those who your church put to death, including the Jews at the time of the crusades. I know enough to keep me wanting Christ more and more, because I recognise my need of Him so greatly. The church is today without walls, as more and more are falling from the Truth and mixing with other religions (mixed incense), which is an offence to God. His banner over me is Love and the World Church is developing a banner of it’s own kind, tolerating every doctrine in it’s plan to bring about a ‘One world Religion’ along with a ‘One world order’ But Jesus will not let it stand, for it is foretold in the book of Daniel that he will come and smash it, and bring His glorious Church with Him to reign with us…
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How is it that your private interpretation of the scriptures can be infallible, as you seem to believe?

Hidden in your responses is an indication that you view the Catholic Church as a force for evil - a tool of the devil.

Is there any chance, any chance at all, that you might be mistaken on this?
 
harrisrose77 said:
You mean a question that you hope to be uncomfortable for me to ponder. I can hear your indignation against me loud and clear Mr po18guy. My authority is my Lord Jesus, given to Him by the God -Head, and thus given to me to discern in these the latter days. I do not proclaim to know everything, for God Himself tells me I see through a ‘glass dimly’ until the fullness of time, when I am present with Him. I am a simple woman of no great intelligence and I don’t lay claim to any higher educational certificates. My only experience is life in this dark world, with my own ignorance and suffering, until god led me to my Saviour through my search for Him with all my heart. I don’t depend on the wisdom of man, unless I discern it’s of God. I am guilty of living with an unguided heart up until 11 years ago. I know of Luther and many more men of God, including those who your church put to death, including the Jews at the time of the crusades. I know enough to keep me wanting Christ more and more, because I recognise my need of Him so greatly. The church is today without walls, as more and more are falling from the Truth and mixing with other religions (mixed incense), which is an offence to God. His banner over me is Love and the World Church is developing a banner of it’s own kind, tolerating every doctrine in it’s plan to bring about a ‘One world Religion’ along with a ‘One world order’ But Jesus will not let it stand, for it is foretold in the book of Daniel that he will come and smash it, and bring His glorious Church with Him to reign with us…
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The Godhead is Mormonism. You are now dismissing the Bible for the Book of Mormon. Remember that the Catholic Church does not rely soley on the Bible similar to Bible-only denominations. We rely on the Magesterium to teach us and Tradition in addition to the Bible. You may profess the Book of Momron as infallible, but I do not believe a legitimate discussion may occur between us since we are utilizing separate sources.
 
harrisrose77 said:
You mean a question that you hope to be uncomfortable for me to ponder. I can hear your indignation against me loud and clear Mr po18guy. My authority is my Lord Jesus, given to Him by the God -Head, and thus given to me to discern in these the latter days. I do not proclaim to know everything, for God Himself tells me I see through a ‘glass dimly’ until the fullness of time, when I am present with Him. I am a simple woman of no great intelligence and I don’t lay claim to any higher educational certificates. My only experience is life in this dark world, with my own ignorance and suffering, until god led me to my Saviour through my search for Him with all my heart. I don’t depend on the wisdom of man, unless I discern it’s of God. I am guilty of living with an unguided heart up until 11 years ago. I know of Luther and many more men of God, including those who your church put to death, including the Jews at the time of the crusades. I know enough to keep me wanting Christ more and more, because I recognise my need of Him so greatly. The church is today without walls, as more and more are falling from the Truth and mixing with other religions (mixed incense), which is an offence to God. His banner over me is Love and the World Church is developing a banner of it’s own kind, tolerating every doctrine in it’s plan to bring about a ‘One world Religion’ along with a ‘One world order’ But Jesus will not let it stand, for it is foretold in the book of Daniel that he will come and smash it, and bring His glorious Church with Him to reign with us…
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So your authority is the Book of Mormom? Therefore, this is not a decision you came upon yourself, but relied on an authority other than your own, correct? Your stance, therefore, is that God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit are separate. Again, why does your authority superced the authority of the Catholic Church?
 
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