Transubstantiation and John 6

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I’m not a Mormon. I’m not a J.W, nor a Moony, nor am I a Presbyterian, or ecumenical. Not a hyper-Charismatic from Toronto. I’m not even a Baptist and I’m not Catholic.
 
The Story of the Eucharist.

Exodus 12:5: Your lamb shall be an unblemished male…1 Pet 1:18-19: For you know that it was not with perishable things… that you were redeemed, but with the precious blood of Christ, a lamb without blemish or defect.1 Pet 2:22: He committed no sin, and no deceit was found in his mouth.Exodus 12:43: This is the ordinance of the Passover; no foreigner is to eat of it…1 Corinthians 11:29: For anyone who eats and drinks without recognizing the body and blood of the Lord, eats and drinks judgement on himself…“We call this food Eucharist; and no one else is permitted to partake of it, except one who believes our teaching to be true.”
  • Saint Justin Martyr, 151 A.D.Exodus 12:46: It is to be eaten in a single house; you are not to bring forth any of the flesh outside of the house, nor are you to break any bone of it.John 19:33: But when they came to Jesus and found that he was already dead, they did not break his legs.Exodus 12:8: They shall eat the flesh that same night…John 6:53: So Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in yourselves."Luke 22:19: And he took bread, gave thanks, and broke it, saying, "This is my body given for you; do this in remembrance of me."Exodus 24:8: Moses then took the blood, sprinkled it on the people and said, "This is the covenant of the blood that the LORD has made with you in accordance with all these words."Luke 22:20: In the same way, after the supper he took the cup, saying, "This cup is the new covenant in my blood, which is poured out for you."John 6:51-58: “I am the living bread that came down out of heaven; if anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever; and the bread also which I will give for the life of the world is my flesh.” So Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in yourselves. He who eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day. For my flesh is true food, and my blood is true drink. He who eats my flesh and drinks my blood abides in me, and I in him. As the living Father sent me, and I live because of the Father, so he who eats me, he also will live because of me. This is the bread that came down from heaven; not as the fathers ate and died; he who eats this bread will live forever.” John 6:66-67: As a result of this many of his disciples withdrew and were not walking with him anymore.Mark 4:15: "These are the ones who are beside the road where the word is sown; and when they hear, immediately Satan comes and takes away the word which has been sown in them."John 14:15: "If you love me, you will keep my commandments."Luke 22:19: "Do this in remembrance of me."1 John 2:4: The one who says, “I have come to know him,” and does not keep his commandments, is a liar and the truth is not in him…1 John 5:3:For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments, and His commandments are not burdensome.1 Corinthians 7:19: Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but what matters is the keeping of the commandments of God.Mark 4:23: If anyone has ears to hear, let him hear.
 
The Didache, 70 A.D.:
Assemble on the Lord’s Day, and break bread and offer the Eucharist; but first make confession of your faults, so that your sacrifice may be a pure one.

Matt. 5:24:
…leave your gift there in front of the altar. First go and be reconciled to your brother; then come and offer your gift.

The Didache, 70 A.D.
Anyone who has a difference with his fellow is not to take part with you until he has been reconciled, so as to avoid any profanation of your sacrifice.

1 Cor 11:27-28
Whoever, therefore, eats of the bread and drinks of the cup in an unworthy manner will be guilty of profaning the body and blood of the Lord. Let a man examine himself, and so eat of the bread and drink of the cup.

St. Ignatius of Antioch, 110 A.D.
"Make certain, therefore, that you all observe one common Eucharist; for there is but one Body of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, and but one cup of union with His Blood, and one single altar of sacrifice…

Heb 13:10
We have an altar whereof they have no power to eat who serve the tabernacle.

“God speaks by the mouth of Malachi, one of the twelve [minor prophets]… about the sacrifices at that time presented by you [in the Old Covenant]: I have no pleasure in you, says the Lord, and I will not accept the sacrifices at your hands; for from the rising of the sun to the going down of the same, my name has been glorified among the Gentiles, and in every place incense is offered to My Name, and a pure offering, for My Name is great among the Gentiles… [Mal 3:10-11]. He then speaks of those Gentiles, namely us [Christians] who in every place offer sacrifices to Him, that is, the bread of the Eucharist and the cup of the Eucharist.”

Full credits to this chap: youtube.com/watch?v=AMyWfkcrBPA
 
InJesusItrust said:
The fact that you think the Eucharist is not real shows that you know not of what you speak or don’t understand the history you’ve read.

You have zeal, but not according to knowledge.
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One must look with eyes that see!
 
harrisrose77 said:
You mean a question that you hope to be uncomfortable for me to ponder. I can hear your indignation against me loud and clear Mr po18guy. My authority is my Lord Jesus, given to Him by the God -Head, and thus given to me to discern in these the latter days. I do not proclaim to know everything, for God Himself tells me I see through a ‘glass dimly’ until the fullness of time, when I am present with Him. I am a simple woman of no great intelligence and I don’t lay claim to any higher educational certificates. My only experience is life in this dark world, with my own ignorance and suffering, until god led me to my Saviour through my search for Him with all my heart. I don’t depend on the wisdom of man, unless I discern it’s of God. I am guilty of living with an unguided heart up until 11 years ago. I know of Luther and many more men of God, including those who your church put to death, including the Jews at the time of the crusades. I know enough to keep me wanting Christ more and more, because I recognise my need of Him so greatly. The church is today without walls, as more and more are falling from the Truth and mixing with other religions (mixed incense), which is an offence to God. His banner over me is Love and the World Church is developing a banner of it’s own kind, tolerating every doctrine in it’s plan to bring about a ‘One world Religion’ along with a ‘One world order’ But Jesus will not let it stand, for it is foretold in the book of Daniel that he will come and smash it, and bring His glorious Church with Him to reign with us…
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*Muddy waters I’m afraid! Pray for guidance and clarity. You love Jesus - listen to Him.
 
harrisrose77 said:
I’m not a Mormon. I’m not a J.W, nor a Moony, nor am I a Presbyterian, or ecumenical. Not a hyper-Charismatic from Toronto. I’m not even a Baptist and I’m not Catholic.
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You might tell us what you are… or don’t you know? You have told us what you are not and it would help the discussion to know exactly what you are. For instance - what is your authority? I know you will say Jesus is your authority but how? Through your own interpretation? It helps to define yourself.
 
I feel that it is time to agree to disagree. Both sides are adamant, and it is obvious that neither will give in.

To the harris side (both husband and wife):
You are hard pressed to attempt to unravel 2000 years of Church teaching. You are not the first to try, you won’t be the last, but you can simply not do it. We’ve got Scripture and Tradition on our side, despite what you believe.

To everyone else:
I can tell by the way these two debate, it is more arguing because they think they are right and won’t consider another view, because they are hard-hearted and close-minded. They will not succumb to any points made, clear or not. So, I think it is time to stop trying.

This is a lose-lose battle, IMO.

Hearts are not won by anger.

That is my final two cents.

God Bless
 
GK Chesterton had something very wise and amusing to say about “agreeing to disagree”. I wish I could find it. Anyone?
 
Well, it is all moot now. I am guessing Seventh Day Adventist, but it really doesn’t matter.

One can only hope that they question their views in light of history.
 
Cinette said:
GK Chesterton had something very wise and amusing to say about “agreeing to disagree”. I wish I could find it. Anyone?
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I’m not sure what you have in mind, but this Chesterton quote seems apt for what was happening in this thread:

"When a man is discussing what Jesus meant, let him state first of all what He said, not what the man thinks He would have said if he had expressed Himself more clearly."
 
GraceSofia said:
I’m not sure what you have in mind, but this Chesterton quote seems apt for what was happening in this thread:

"When a man is discussing what Jesus meant, let him state first of all what He said, not what the man thinks He would have said if he had expressed Himself more clearly."
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Oftentimes we post, not for the sake of those with whom we dispute, but for the sake of those who are lurking and can decide for themselves which side’s argument carries the greater historical and theological weight.

As for those who have recently departed, who can blame them for disputing? They have been taught error and likely have experienced nothing else. Those who taught error to them bear the greater responsibility (James 3:1). We can only pray that a single word or phrase seen here might have captured their attention.
 
Is it just coincidence that when they came up with chapter numbers and verse numbers that in John 6 when some people who were following Jesus quit following Him because the teaching on the Eucharist was a hard teaching they left in John 6:66?
 
Jerry-Jet said:
Is it just coincidence that when they came up with chapter numbers and verse numbers that in John 6 when some people who were following Jesus quit following Him because the teaching on the Eucharist was a hard teaching they left in John 6:66?
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Finding the Eucharist to be “repugnant” is an exact parallel of the words of those who abandoned Jesus in John 6:66. I pray that the poster who feels this way might sincerely reflect on that.
 
po18guy said:
Finding the Eucharist to be “repugnant” is an exact parallel of the words of those who abandoned Jesus in John 6:66. I pray that the poster who feels this way might sincerely reflect on that.
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Po18guy:

Yes, when I was an Evangelical discussing the same topic here at this forum, someone pointed this out to me, too. It did make me think about my reaction to Jesus’ words. Do you think it might help our non-Catholic friend to explain how eating the Eucharist is not the same as canibalism?
 
Here are two questions I would ask someone who disagrees with the Real Presence:
  1. If God can appear under the appearance of a burning bush, a human, a dove, and tongues of fire, why not bread and wine?
  2. At the Last Supper, when Jesus said, “Do this in remembrance of me”, why would he command this of His apostles? If he was not referring to His Real Presence, but only for his apostles to literally do this as a symbolic remembrance, then it is just an ego thing. Just so that they would be sitting around every Passover and say “Hey, Peter! Do you remember when we were with Jesus? Good times, man, good times!” Taken as a symbolic remembrance is purely meaningless. Only when taken as Jesus commanding them to eat of His flesh and drink of His blood as evidence of His Real Presence, does it make sense. Otherwise, like I said, Jesus was just on an ego trip. “Hey guys, remember me when I’m gone!”
 
spockrates said:
Po18guy:

Yes, when I was an Evangelical discussing the same topic here at this forum, someone pointed this out to me, too. It did make me think about my reaction to Jesus’ words. Do you think it might help our non-Catholic friend to explain how eating the Eucharist is not the same as canibalism?
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To those who make the absurd “cannibalism” claim, it is appropriate to use Jesus’ own words against them: “Get behind me, Satan! You think as man does and not as God does!” (Matthew 16:23)

Such an argument is shallow, simple-minded, bigoted thinking. Cannibalism is first of all, homicide, and is the taking of flesh - human flesh which avails nothing and gains one only eternal damnation.

The Holy Eucharist is the bread of life, which we receive from Christ. We are actually commanded by Christ to “take, eat, this is my Body”. We drink His Blood to fully enter into the New and everlasting Covenant.

For the sake of denominational loyalty - essentially tribalism - many deny Christ in the Eucharist. In another thread, one member claimed that Christ could not give us His Flesh and Blood. That was the first time that I heard the claim that there was something that Jesus could not do.

John 6:66 indeed.
 
po18guy said:
Oftentimes we post, not for the sake of those with whom we dispute, but for the sake of those who are lurking and can decide for themselves which side’s argument carries the greater historical and theological weight.

As for those who have recently departed, who can blame them for disputing? They have been taught error and likely have experienced nothing else. Those who taught error to them bear the greater responsibility (James 3:1). We can only pray that a single word or phrase seen here might have captured their attention.
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My sentiments exactly, all we can do is plant the seeds, sometimes they fall on rocky ground and sometimes,let us have hope, that they fall on fertile ground. The rest we leave to our Lord!!!
 
po18guy said:
To those who make the absurd “cannibalism” claim, it is appropriate to use Jesus’ own words against them: “Get behind me, Satan! You think as man does and not as God does!” (Matthew 16:23) *How can we ignore these words? *

Such an argument is shallow, simple-minded, bigoted thinking. Cannibalism is first of all, homicide, and is the taking of flesh - human flesh which avails nothing and gains one only eternal damnation.

The Holy Eucharist is the bread of life, which we receive from Christ. We are actually commanded by Christ to “take, eat, this is my Body”. We drink His Blood to fully enter into the New and everlasting Covenant.

For the sake of denominational loyalty - essentially tribalism - many deny Christ in the Eucharist. In another thread, one member claimed that Christ could not give us His Flesh and Blood. That was the first time that I heard the claim that there was something that Jesus could not do.

John 6:66 indeed.
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*Great reasoning! Some people want to take over and tell Jesus what to do, what is right and what is wrong! As for me I prefer to believe and trust as well as love Jesus. What else? He has “the words of Eternal Life”.
 
*Besides we need to show gratitude and praise God for the great gift of Himself in the form of Bread and Wine. I trust Jesus and I want to be in his Kingdom which begins here on earth - we need to follow His precepts. His way is the best way - the right way. We need to trust Him.
 
spockrates said:
Po18guy:

Yes, when I was an Evangelical discussing the same topic here at this forum, someone pointed this out to me, too. It did make me think about my reaction to Jesus’ words. Do you think it might help our non-Catholic friend to explain how eating the Eucharist is not the same as canibalism?
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The charge of “cannibalism” leveled against us by protestants to me is another “proof” in favor of the Eucharist; because if protestants echo the same exact charge leveled against early Christians by their Roman and Jewish persecutors, then the misunderstanding cannot possibly be on the part of Catholic Christians.
 
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