Transubstantiation and John 6

[harrisrose77]

The finished work of God’s salvation plan? Really…His Ressurection was not included in His salvation plan? His conquering of Death unto Life was not included in that plan? He is Risen, He is not dead…death was not the end of His plan for us!!! One thing you are correct on is that He is the Lamb of God…what were the jews instructed to do with the unblemished Lamb at Passover? They were to EAT the Lamb, not a symbol of the lamb…!!

Isaiah 1:11.

 

[Cinette]

The finished works of God’s Salvation plan, through Christ’s sacrifice; Sin forever covered by the shed blood. (Atonement). The redemptive works for growth whilst we remain in The Faith of Jesus, for He says ’ I am the vine and you are the branches…Without Me you can do nothing.’ John 15:5. Catholics seem to believe that Jesus didn’t do enough on the cross, even when He said ‘It’s finished’. The Old Testament show’s us 'Archetypal’s of the coming ‘Messiah’ and therefore, when Jesus made His triumphal entry, He was the unblemished Lamb of God, who was foretold in the Old. He is the ONLY redeemer and Saviour of those who will accept. Salvation is a gift through faith. We are in a period of ‘Grace’, because God is not willing that any man perish. 2 Peter 3:9.
May His word richly bless you.

*The problem with many non-Catholics is that they think they know more about what we believe than we ourselves! They write books attacking us, they call us names, and it goes on and on. I don’t know of a single book written by Catholics attacking non-Catholics but there are plenty attacking the Catholic Church. but then Jesus did warn us… *

 

[harrisrose77]

Isaiah 1:11.

Of course Jesus was risen and is risen still. He is the only Living God. Of this I’m definitely assured. I died with Christ on the cross, and daily I’m to die to my old dead self, but this can only be done by the unction of the Holy Spirit in me and my willing to submit to His ways. I live in my spirit, because He died for me. I was always dead in my sin before I came to know Christ my Saviour. Ephesians 2:1. And 2:5, 4:18, and Colossians 2:13.

 

[harrisrose77]

Of course Jesus was risen and is risen still. He is the only Living God. Of this I’m definitely assured. I died with Christ on the cross, and daily I’m to die to my old dead self, but this can only be done by the unction of the Holy Spirit in me and my willing to submit to His ways. I live in my spirit, because He died for me. I was always dead in my sin before I came to know Christ my Saviour. Ephesians 2:1. And 2:5, 4:18, and Colossians 2:13.

Outside of the risen, living Lord, I’m dead. I’m born again of His Spirit, for mine was dead in it’s transgressions. My heart was heard, and my eyes(spiritual) were blind, even my ears were not hearing the Truth until God drew me to the Son.

 

[GraceSofia]

*The problem with many non-Catholics is that they think they know more about what we believe than we ourselves! . *

It does get rather old, doesn’t it?

The finished works of God’s Salvation plan, through Christ’s sacrifice; Sin forever covered by the shed blood. (Atonement).

Sin is not merely covered in Catholic theology; it is pardoned, removed, forgiven.

Catholics seem to believe that Jesus didn’t do enough on the cross, even when He said ‘It’s finished’.

Well, that is NOT what Catholics believe. Why don’t you learn what Catholicism teaches?

 

[InJesusItrust]

Matthew 7:22 clearly states that Jesus did not know those who did ‘good works’ without Him and without being born again in Him, for ‘…Without Me you can do nothing.’ John 15:5.

We can do no good works apart from Christ, but we can choose to ignore the graces He sends inspiring good works.

The point is faith alone does not save, and the bible is clear about this:

[BIBLEDRB]James 2:24[/BIBLEDRB]

[BIBLEDRB]Matthew 7:21[/BIBLEDRB]

Jesus commands us to be perfect. By the way you ignored everything else.

 

[harrisrose77]

It does get rather old, doesn’t it?

Sin is not merely covered in Catholic theology; it is pardoned, removed, forgiven.

Well, that is NOT what Catholics believe. Why don’t you learn what Catholicism teaches?

I do beg your pardon. It is completely removed. Forever forgotten the Lord says ’ Into a sea of forgetfulness.’ So sorry to have written it improperly. Praise His mighty name!
Thank you Jesus!

 

[harrisrose77]

I do beg your pardon. It is completely removed. Forever forgotten the Lord says ’ Into a sea of forgetfulness.’ So sorry to have written it improperly. Praise His mighty name!
Thank you Jesus!

Hebrews 8:12. ’ For I will forgive their wickedness and remember their sins no more.’

 

[harrisrose77]

We can do no good works apart from Christ, but we can choose to ignore the graces He sends inspiring good works.

The point is faith alone does not save, and the bible is clear about this:

[BIBLEDRB]James 2:24[/BIBLEDRB]

[BIBLEDRB]Matthew 7:21[/BIBLEDRB]

Jesus commands us to be perfect. By the way you ignored everything else.

I understand that it’s not by faith alone, but by the outward showing of that faith. It’s still god who initiates our works in Him, by the Holy spirit. we cannot just do good works in order to be saved. There lies the difference.
Ephesians 2:10 and 1 Corinthians 2:9-10

 

[MollyMac]

Why did the first Christians believe it then?

John 10:14-16
I am the good shepherd. I know my own and my own know me, just as the Father knows me and I know the Father; and I lay down my life for the sheep. And I have other sheep that are not of this fold. I must bring them also, and they will listen to my voice. So there will be one flock, one shepherd.

 

[InJesusItrust]

Who does good works in Jesus’ name without faith? But if you don’t keep His commandments you don’t love Him. Part of His commandments is to eat His flesh, not rationalize it away because it is a hard saying.

 

[InJesusItrust]

John 10:14-16
I am the good shepherd. I know my own and my own know me, just as the Father knows me and I know the Father; and I lay down my life for the sheep. And I have other sheep that are not of this fold. I must bring them also, and they will listen to my voice. So there will be one flock, one shepherd.

I mean why did the first Christians believe in the Real Presence if it is not true? Who taught them this inanity? Why would they worship a piece of bread, being Jews?

 

[GraceSofia]

I mean why did the first Christians believe in the Real Presence if it is not true? Who taught them this inanity? Why would they worship a piece of bread, being Jews?

Exactly!

ScriptureCatholic.com has THE most impressive collection of Bible verses and quotes from the Early Church Fathers that I have ever seen --here: The Eucharist
Please have a look, everyone, as it is really kind of mind-blowing to see it all put together and laid out like this. These are the sub-headings:

Old Testament
Foreshadowing of the Eucharistic Sacrifice
Foreshadowing of the Requirement to Consume the Sacrifice

New Testament
Jesus Promises His Real Presence in the Eucharist
Jesus Institutes the Eucharist / More Proofs of the Real Presence
Jesus’ Passion is Connected to the Passover Sacrifice Where the Lamb Must be Eaten
Eucharist Makes Present Jesus’ One Eternal Sacrifice; Not Just a Symbolic Memorial
Jesus in Glory Perpetually Offers the Father His Sacrifice on our Behalf
The Book of Revelation and the Holy Mass

Tradition / Church Fathers
Jesus’ Real Presence in the Eucharist
The Bread and Wine Become Jesus’ Body and Blood

 

[Cinette]

I understand that it’s not by faith alone, but by the outward showing of that faith. It’s still god who initiates our works in Him, by the Holy spirit. we cannot just do good works in order to be saved. There lies the difference.
Ephesians 2:10 and 1 Corinthians 2:9-10

*A person with strong Faith and love of God will automatically feed the poor, be charitable, clothe the naked, visit the sick and so on. All this is made possible through grace. I don’t know why Protestants don’t get it. But the most amazing thing is that after the Apostolic Tradition (these are words I have never heard from Protestants) the Church began to grow and develop and for the first 1500 years all Christians believed in the Real Presence - even Luther, Zwingly and Calvin believed. They also believed Mary to be the Mother of God and then - poof! Protestantism began to split into thousands of denominations and the faith was watered down and now they think they can argue with 1500 years of Christianity.

Having said all this I recommend that Protestants do a thorough reading of the New Testament and pray about this - ask the Holy Spirit for guidance and to give them discernment and knowledge… *

 

[JRKH]

James,
If the Eucharist is central to salvation then it need to be plainly stated. For me, Jesus would have spent more time and words on it than we see in scripture; the Last Supper would have been a good opportunity to do so. Jesus would have emphasized the importance of the eating of the bread and wine if it was as central as the Catholic Church makes it. He does not.

I just don’t understand why you demand MORE. Jesus said that if you don’t eat his flesh and drink his blood you have no life in you. He said - this is my body and this is my blood…Paul said that if you eat and drink without discerning the body and blood - if you partake unworthily - you bring judgement on yourself…

Add the fact that both of the Ancient Churches (RC and EO) have BOTH always held to the real presence…and you have a slam dunk. Jesus said it, the Church believed it, and has taught same for 2 millenia…

I accept you may have a point with regard to the early church fathers. I will come back on that.

Fair enough…Frankly I’m no expert on the ECF’s so I will leave that for others to address with you.
I hope we are not overwhelming you too much…It is an excellent forum for discussion…but very busy…

Peace
James

 

[JRKH]

Acts 17:11:
Now the Berean Jews were of more noble character than those in Thessalonica, for they received the message with great eagerness and examined the Scriptures every day to see if what Paul said was true.

I am only doing as much myself as we all do. I realise I could be very wrong.

Amen and you are doing well to do so…

but I implore you to also look into what Scripture says about authority…Authority is given to the Church and the NT points consistently to this fact.

Taking the Berean example cited above…they were not working as individuals, but as a group - discussing thee matters - and I am sure had many debates and questions. So who did they go to with questions? Most likely their teacher, St Paul and St Paul, as we know from Galatians(?) checked his teachings with the “Pillars of the Church”, James John and Peter.

So continue to dig and continue to ask questions. This is a great place to get answers.

Peace
James

 

[JRKH]

John 16:13. Says; ’ The Spirit of truth will guide you into all truth…’

Mt 18:17-18 says “Tell it to the Church” and “Listen to the Church” for the Church has the authority to bind and loose whatever.

I say this not to counter your quote but to add to it. Yes the Spirit of Truth will guide one into all truth, but how does one know they are guided by the Spirit of Truth? Jesus gives us a way to “test the spirits”, in conversation and debate and prayerful reflection in the Community - the Church.

John 16:13 needs to be understood within the context of the unity of the Church that Jesus prayed for.

Peace
James

 

[spockrates]

Hi spockrates,
There does seem to be a degree of ambiguity, yes. I believe that if one is a believer in Christ, one would take the bread and wine and remember Christ in doing so. To have eternal life we must accept that Jesus was who he said he was and that he gave his life - his flesh and blood - for us. It is obvious to me that Jesus defines the ‘eating of the flesh of the Son of Man and drinking of his blood’ in the earlier verses as I have already outlined. In John 4, ‘The woman at the well’, a similar metaphor is used by Jesus (verses 10-14):
Jesus answered her, “If you knew the gift of God and who it is that asks you for a drink, you would have asked him and he would have given you living water.” “Sir,” the woman said, “you have nothing to draw with and the well is deep. Where can you get this living water? Are you greater than our father Jacob, who gave us the well and drank from it himself, as did also his sons and his livestock?” Jesus answered, “Everyone who drinks this water will be thirsty again, but whoever drinks the water I give them will never thirst. Indeed, the water I give them will become in them a spring of water welling up to eternal life.”

John 8:12; 10:9; 15:1:
When Jesus spoke again to the people, he said, “I am the light of the world. Whoever follows me will never walk in darkness, but will have the light of life.”
I am the gate; whoever enters through me will be saved
“I am the true vine, and my Father is the gardener.

The words of Jesus at John 6:63 can be taken to mean that his preceding words were not meant literally:
The Spirit gives life; the flesh counts for nothing. The words I have spoken to you—they are full of the Spirit and life.

Speaking plainly, I find the idea of transubstantiation repugnant. I don’t believe for one moment that Jesus ever taught it.

Jan

Thanks for the reply, Jan. Still wondering how you will answer my question. Do you think this is an accurate interpretation of Christ’s words?

Jesus said to them, “Very truly I tell you, unless you [believe in] the flesh of the Son of Man and [believe in] his blood, you have no life in you."

(John 6:53)

If this is the correct understanding of what he said, then what do you and I need to believe about Christ’s flesh and blood to have life in us? If it is not the correct understanding, then how would you interpret the verse, instead?

 

[maryj]

Isaiah 1:11.

Non answer…What is finished?

 

[maryj]

Of course Jesus was risen and is risen still. He is the only Living God. Of this I’m definitely assured. I died with Christ on the cross, and daily I’m to die to my old dead self, but this can only be done by the unction of the Holy Spirit in me and my willing to submit to His ways. I live in my spirit, because He died for me. I was always dead in my sin before I came to know Christ my Saviour. Ephesians 2:1. And 2:5, 4:18, and Colossians 2:13.

ewtn.com/faith/teachings/euchc2.htm