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GraceSofia
Guest
Good post. St. Cyprian said in the 3rd century, “Those who start their own church follow the voice of Satan.”
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MollyMac
Guest
For a lass like me, it is not that I dont believe Christ our Lord could accomplish that miracle. All things are possible with God. That is a firm belief of mine. The point is whether that is what Christ was saying. As the posters are debating- was it figurative or literal?Hi, Onenow1
That is an excellent post.
God bless
I am at this point in my journey, on the side that Christ was showing his disciples and followers that He was not an earthly messiah. He was THEE Messiah. The disciples, after all the time they spent with Christ, still contemplated what kind of Savior He was to be. (I cant imagine being with them on the Friday and Saturday Christ’s body was in the tomb. They still had their doubts about what really happened then, did they not? They must have been so confused at some point.) Christ used all these visible references/lifelines(vine, bread, light, etc…) to drive home the message that He was there to save them in a Spiritual way, not an earthly way. HE was the ONLY way and without Him there was NO eternal life. Thankyou for being patient with me even though most will disagree. I appreciate this thread.
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GraceSofia
Guest
Molly,
I think you’ll find that most of us have all the time in the world for people who are genuinely seeking to understand the Catholic faith.
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Cinette
Guest
*How do you, or any Protestant for that matter, explain why Jesus repeated himself 6 consecutive times *after the Disciples turned their backs on Him? Why? What do you think he meant?
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tqualey
Guest
Hi, MollyMac,
To wonder about just what was Christ saying in John 6 and in the Synoptic accounts of the Last Supper is really a wonderful way to start a very focused journey towards Christ. As I see it, one must make up their mind very early in the process - just what kind of evidence will you consider.
One of the strongest forms of evidence comes from eye-witnesses. Just what was seen and heard by those who were there? Once that has been examined - then we look to those who were with the original witnesses - and while this may be considered ‘hear-say’ evidence - it does have value if the original witnesses did not identify things that those who followed them did identify. Now, as a human experiennce - eye witnesses seeing the same event seldom agree on every detail. When you get to the hear-say witnesses - well… virtually anything is possible. But, we are talking about events that happened almost 2,000 years ago - and if ever there was a chance for a continued drift from the Truth - this is it! Goodness, we did not have the Bible as we have come to know it today until about 400AD. That is 400 years of not having thngs like we are used to taking for granted!
But, look at what we have - the Early Church Fathers come on the historical scene and provided intellect and insight and heart to their writings. The writings of these men priase the Eucharist and if this is true, then I think reading what they wrote would be a good way to start your jourey to Chirst.
There re no easy answers - but, there is a simple one: be like the little child that Christ promotes
God bless
God bless
To wonder about just what was Christ saying in John 6 and in the Synoptic accounts of the Last Supper is really a wonderful way to start a very focused journey towards Christ. As I see it, one must make up their mind very early in the process - just what kind of evidence will you consider.
One of the strongest forms of evidence comes from eye-witnesses. Just what was seen and heard by those who were there? Once that has been examined - then we look to those who were with the original witnesses - and while this may be considered ‘hear-say’ evidence - it does have value if the original witnesses did not identify things that those who followed them did identify. Now, as a human experiennce - eye witnesses seeing the same event seldom agree on every detail. When you get to the hear-say witnesses - well… virtually anything is possible. But, we are talking about events that happened almost 2,000 years ago - and if ever there was a chance for a continued drift from the Truth - this is it! Goodness, we did not have the Bible as we have come to know it today until about 400AD. That is 400 years of not having thngs like we are used to taking for granted!
But, look at what we have - the Early Church Fathers come on the historical scene and provided intellect and insight and heart to their writings. The writings of these men priase the Eucharist and if this is true, then I think reading what they wrote would be a good way to start your jourey to Chirst.There re no easy answers - but, there is a simple one: be like the little child that Christ promotes
God bless
God bless
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MollyMac
Guest
What did He repeat “6 consecutive times”? Is it a matter of which “I Am” is repeated the most? Is it equivilant to taking score in a sports competition? Christ also calls Himself the Good Shepherd. John 10 as a whole is dedicated to Christ as our Shepherd. He also implies it in His prayer in John 17. The Old Testament refers to Him as our Shepherd, so does Peter and Revelation 7:17. There are over 20 “I Am” statements, most of which are repeated more than once. All of them are of equal importance. The context of John 6 is regarding physical food and spiritual food and Christ explaining to the people around Him that while they need physical food to survive, they need HIM to live eternally. He is the True Bread. The Passover points to Christ, Christ replaced the Passover feast the night of the “Last Supper” with what He says we need to do in remembrance of Him. So, taking Christ’s word “remembrance” literally, that is what I do. Christ is my Bread, Shepherd, Gate, Door, Vine, Morning Star, Light, Author and Perfector of my faith, Savior, Lord, Friend, God. He is my lifeline. This is a serious subject to most and once again while most won’t agree with me, I do appreciate this thread. Thankyou.
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MollyMac
Guest
Yes. I have been doing this. ThankyouHi, MollyMac,
To wonder about just what was Christ saying in John 6 and in the Synoptic accounts of the Last Supper is really a wonderful way to start a very focused journey towards Christ. As I see it, one must make up their mind very early in the process - just what kind of evidence will you consider.
One of the strongest forms of evidence comes from eye-witnesses. Just what was seen and heard by those who were there? Once that has been examined - then we look to those who were with the original witnesses - and while this may be considered ‘hear-say’ evidence - it does have value if the original witnesses did not identify things that those who followed them did identify. Now, as a human experiennce - eye witnesses seeing the same event seldom agree on every detail. When you get to the hear-say witnesses - well… virtually anything is possible. But, we are talking about events that happened almost 2,000 years ago - and if ever there was a chance for a continued drift from the Truth - this is it! Goodness, we did not have the Bible as we have come to know it today until about 400AD. That is 400 years of not having thngs like we are used to taking for granted!
There re no easy answers - but, there is a simple one: be like the little child that Christ promotes
God bless
God bless
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InJesusItrust
Guest
Satan and false religion often requires offering blood and flesh to their gods. Jesus offers His own flesh and blood to His followers. Shouldn’t this contrast make sense?
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Cinette
Guest
. 51 I am the living bread that came down from heaven. Whoever eats of this bread will live forever; and the bread that I will give for the life of the world is my flesh.”
52 The Jews then disputed among themselves saying, “How can this man give us his flesh to eat?”
53 Jesus said to them, “Very truly, I tell you,
unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you.
54 Those who eat my flesh and drink my blood have eternal life, and I will raise them up on the last day;
55 for my flesh is true food and my blood is true drink.
56 Those who eat my flesh and drink my blood abide in me and I in them.
57 Just as the living Father sent me and I live because of the Father, so
whoever eats me will live because of me.
This is what I meant Molly.
po18guy
Well-known member
Do you have a copy of Catholicism for Dummies? It is an excellent resource that explains the faith in non-technical language. Many RCIA programs use it.Yes. I have been doing this. Thankyou
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jim1130
Guest
As a Catholic, I have learned over the years that it takes a lot to convince a non-Catholic in the Real Presence and that John 6 should be taken literally. My experience has been that the non-Catholics look at me and ask “How can you believe THAT?” whereas I look at them and say “But when you apply the figurative approach it does not make sense.” At least before the recent trend toward fundamentalism and Bible-only churches ther was a little give-and-take, but anymore I share what I know and leave it up to the individual person to decide. Even Jesus did not strong arm the non-believers in John 6. He let them walk away.
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jim1130
Guest
Molly - One exercise, and I mean this without intending for it to be heretical, is to add “LIKE” or even “SIMILAR” to the pronouncement of Christ.
John 6:48-51: I AM THE BREAD OF LIFE. Your fathers ate manna in the desert and they died. This is the bread that comes down from heaven so that a man may eat it and not die. I AM THE LIVING BREAD, which came down from heaven. If any man eats this bread, he shall live forever and the bread which I will give, IS MY FLESH for the life of the world.
John 6:48-51: I am LIKE the bread of life. Your fathers ate manna in the desert and they died. This is the bread that comes down from heaven so that a man may eat it and not die. I am LIKE the living bread, which came down from heaven. If any man eats this bread, he shall live forever and the bread which I will give, is LIKE my flesh for the life of the world.
Adding “LIKE” just does not work. It is awkward. I suppose you could rewrite the verses to add the figurative tone, but that still does not explain the reaction of those around him. Why would they get upset if Jesus had said “I am like bread.” Would they say “He is saying he is like a loaf of bread?” Adding the terminology to make the sentence figuartive just does not work. I guess I am not clever enough to explain it in an appropriate way to have it make sense. I guess, in the end, you choose to accept the interpretation on either the Catholic Church or someone else. Either way, you are abiding by an authority to help you come to your conclusion. Hope that you have an enjoyable weekend. Take care. Jim
po18guy
Well-known member
No one on earth can convince anyone of the True Presence. All conversion is of the Holy Spirit. A book about Catholicism will only provide information on beliefs and teachings. That is a start.
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jim1130
Guest
You are 100 % correct, and then some. I guess it is from being on the other end when I am defending the Real Presence and explaining the Real Presence to non-Catholics. I feel like Sisyphus, only please do not thinkI view myself as a king or anything. I am just using the analogy of rolling a boulder up a mountian only to have it roll back down before it reaches the top.
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tqualey
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Cinette
Guest
*52 The Jews then disputed among themselves saying, “How can this man give us his flesh to eat?”
I think that John 6:52 tells it all. The Jews knew exactly what Jesus meant, that it was indeed his flesh and his blood that were to be consumed and not symbolic bread and wine. That is why they asked the question “How can this man give us his flesh to eat?”
Since Jesus is divine and has the power to do all things we must accept Him at his Word.
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I think that John 6:52 tells it all. The Jews knew exactly what Jesus meant, that it was indeed his flesh and his blood that were to be consumed and not symbolic bread and wine. That is why they asked the question “How can this man give us his flesh to eat?”
Since Jesus is divine and has the power to do all things we must accept Him at his Word.
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po18guy
Well-known member
Let’s take this a step further and apply it to John 6:54 (D-R)
John 6:54
Douay-Rheims 1899 American Edition (DRA)
54 Then Jesus said to them: Amen, amen I say unto you: Except you eat something like the flesh of the Son of man, and drink something like his blood, you shall not have life in you.
It becomes nonsensical if taken figuratively.
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InJesusItrust
Guest
When I knew Jesus was the way, I did not know which was the Church of God. It was the argument from history that convinced me. The first Christians believed in distinctly Catholic thing like papacy, purgatory and the Real Presence. Reason asks you where exactly did they get these ideas from, if not Jesus and the apostles (they were the first Christians)? For about a thousand years Christians believed these things until the reformers came along. Who then is the heretic, those who keep the faith as practices by the first Christians or those who pervert it?
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tqualey
Guest
Hi, Po18guy,
Great point!
And, it still requires that some human - UNAIDED by the Holy Spirit - would have to re-write what the inspiried John had written.
As I see it … and, I don’t think I have missed anything - either you take Christ at His Word, or you not only call Him a liar, but then try to invent something to try and make this distorted heresy believable. Trying to personally interpret a verse by adding a word or two is truly deceitful - and, I lay that charge at the feet of Luther, Calvin, Henry VIII, Zwingli and all of the others that throught they could custom tailor the Word of God to fit the ends of Devil!
God bless
Great point!
And, it still requires that some human - UNAIDED by the Holy Spirit - would have to re-write what the inspiried John had written.
As I see it … and, I don’t think I have missed anything - either you take Christ at His Word, or you not only call Him a liar, but then try to invent something to try and make this distorted heresy believable. Trying to personally interpret a verse by adding a word or two is truly deceitful - and, I lay that charge at the feet of Luther, Calvin, Henry VIII, Zwingli and all of the others that throught they could custom tailor the Word of God to fit the ends of Devil!
God bless
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Cinette
Guest
*Christianity existed for 1500 years +/- before Luther and the “reformers” introduced changes and since then they have watered down their different brands of Christianity and we now see them accepting same-sex marriage and heaven knows what else.
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