po18guy
Well-known member
The fact remains that the argument of cannibalism is based 100% in ignorance. For that reason alone, may it be forgivable.
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Lion_of_Narnia
Guest
Hey Paulcor
You really should review how the Catholic Church looks at John 6 and how we defend it’s explicit literal meaning
This is my take on it, but one I believe is in accordance to the consistent teaching of the Church–I believe every “issue” you bring up is dealt with because we HAVE heard these objections before
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=697712
You really should review how the Catholic Church looks at John 6 and how we defend it’s explicit literal meaning
This is my take on it, but one I believe is in accordance to the consistent teaching of the Church–I believe every “issue” you bring up is dealt with because we HAVE heard these objections before
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=697712
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Lion_of_Narnia
Guest
This was a section I edited out of my essay on John 6 for brevityEarly Christian martyrs were brought up on charges of cannibalism…appears to have taken Jesus’s words in regards to the Eucharist literally. There are early christian martyrs who were martyred because they didn’t want to surrender the Eucharist to the Romans. It was precious enough to warrant their lives. Maybe they didn’t have our Bible to tell them it was only bread?
“Another very early Father is the Roman lawyer, Justin Martyr, who wrote to Emperor Antonitus Pius in what was essentially a legal brief, trying to correct any false impressions the Emperor might have about the faith. It is notable Justin took pains in describing the Eucharist because a false understanding of the doctrine of the Real Presence as “cannibalism” was being leveled against the Church. If the Eucharist at this early point was understood by the faithful as “symbolic”, Justin could easily have used that explanation to show how ridiculous the slander was. Instead, Justin goes ahead with the much harder task of confessing the Real Presence:
“We call this food Eucharist; and no one is permitted to partake of it, except one who believes our teaching to be true…For not as common bread nor common drink do we receive these; but since Jesus Christ our Savior was made incarnate by the word of God and had both flesh and blood for our salvation, so too, as we have been taught, the food which has been made into the Eucharist by the Eucharistic prayer set down by Him, and by the change of which our blood and flesh is nourished, is both the Flesh and Blood of that incarnated Jesus.” (First Apology, circa 150 AD)”
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rfournier103
Guest
So… let me get this straight, Polcor… Please bear with me as this is what is known as a teaching moment. If you ARE a Christian…
My friend… the rules of our forum require that we show the utmost respect and courtesy to even the most looney of our guests and visitors. As ridiculous as your assertion is; that Jesus did not mean what He actually said… we in general… and I in particular will give it the consideration we / I feel it deserves.
I feel bad for you, and I understand that you are not the first person to call our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ a liar.
There were many times Jesus spoke in parables, and He TOLD his listeners that He was indeed speaking in parables. To ALL of our knowledge, He said no such thing when talking about transubstantiation, and had MANY chances to say so.
I shall pray for you, my friend.
PS: If you believe the first eleven. Make it an even twelve. A good and holy number.
- You believe in an invisible Man who lives in the sky.
- This invisible Man is everywhere, is all-knowing and all-powerful.
- This invisible Man who lives in the sky concieved a Son in the womb of a virgin woman.
- The Son of the invisible Man in the sky is the King of all Kings and will show us all the path to heaven.
- The Son of the invisible Man in the sky cured the sick.
- The Son of the invisible Man in the sky turned water into wine.
- The Son of the invisible Man in the sky raised the dead.
- The Son of the invisible Man in the sky made many loaves of bread and many fishes out of a few; therefore feeding many many people.
- The Son of the invisible Man in the sky walked on water.
- The Son of the invisible Man in the sky was crucified; having nails pounded through His feet and hands, and a spear thrust into His side; AND THEN His body came back to life three days later and magically flew into the sky.
- The Son of the invisible Man in the sky CAME BACK TO EARTH, and was seen by His followers, AND SPOKE TO THEM to explain what happened.
My friend… the rules of our forum require that we show the utmost respect and courtesy to even the most looney of our guests and visitors. As ridiculous as your assertion is; that Jesus did not mean what He actually said… we in general… and I in particular will give it the consideration we / I feel it deserves.
I feel bad for you, and I understand that you are not the first person to call our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ a liar.
There were many times Jesus spoke in parables, and He TOLD his listeners that He was indeed speaking in parables. To ALL of our knowledge, He said no such thing when talking about transubstantiation, and had MANY chances to say so.
I shall pray for you, my friend.
PS: If you believe the first eleven. Make it an even twelve. A good and holy number.
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rfournier103
Guest
I guess we showed him, didn’t we? In the words of Jack Edwards (Boston Bruins broadcaster)… DON’T. POKE. THE BEAR.
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MarkInOregon
Guest
Who are you agreeing with? And what did Jesus tell his disciples as he passed the bread and the wine to them? What do you make of those words?
Ignoring those words is, I guess, just interpretation by individuals that fits in with what is easy to believe.
Peace,
Mark
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Paulcor
Guest
Christ himself said that no one comes to me unless the Father draws him. Christ wasn’t lying, the Father didn’t draw those that left. Just because some did not grasp what he said, does not mean he wanted them to eat his flesh and blood, it means they did not discern with the spirit.
In Luke 22:19, Jesus says, "do this in remembrance of me.” If it was actually his body and blood, why would he say remembrance? He was telling them to remember his passion, that by it life comes because he offered himself once and for all for our sins.
Hebrews 10:10-12, “By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins: But this man, after HE HAD OFFERED ONE SACRIFICE FOR SINS FOREVER, sat down on the right hand of God;”
And Hebrews 10:16-18, “This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them; And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more. Now where remission of these is,**THERE IS NO MORE OFFERING FOR SIN.” **
And Hebrews 9:12, it is written, “Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.”
The thief on the cross next to Christ received salvation for believing on him, not for literally eating and drinking his flesh. So how was salvation given to this man? It was obviously given in the manner Christ had proclaimed it throughout all the gospels.
When Christ was among EVERY OTHER CROWD, he spoke of believing on him to receive eternal life, he told many, “your faith has saved you”. This has nothing to do with literally eating his flesh which saved them.
In regards to 1 Corinthians 10:16, This does not state they literally eat flesh and drink his blood. In the next verse, “Because there is one loaf, we, who are many, are one body, for we all share the one loaf.” He doesn’t say we share the flesh, its a loaf of bread. The one loaf of bread signifies the one body of believers. Yes, we can have symbolic meaning to our lives, just as we symbolically take up our crosses everyday through struggles other than a crucifixion. Just like we are branches of the vine.
As for 1 Corinthians 11:27-31
“So then, whoever eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty of sinning against the body and blood of the Lord. 28 Everyone ought to examine themselves before they eat of the bread and drink from the cup. 29 For those who eat and drink without discerning the body of Christ eat and drink judgment on themselves. 30 That is why many among you are weak and sick, and a number of you have fallen asleep. 31 But if we were more discerning with regard to ourselves, we would not come under such judgment.”
Notice in verse 28, “Everyone ought to examine themselves before they eat of the BREAD and drink from the CUP” Why doesn’t he say eat of his flesh and brink of his blood?
Well, given the context of this chapter, Paul is upset with people coming hungry to the memorial, or doing things privately or for getting drunk, etc. We can see here a few verses later, 1 Corinthians 11:33-34, “SO THEN”, my brothers and sisters, when you gather to eat, you should all eat together. 34 Anyone who is hungry should eat something at home, so that when you meet together it may not result in judgment." This is the issue Paul had… It wasn’t a matter of literally eating of Christ’s flesh.
As you can imagine I have many posts to read and respond to. Also, for you who said I call my Lord and Savior a liar, that is a bit inappropriate.
In Luke 22:19, Jesus says, "do this in remembrance of me.” If it was actually his body and blood, why would he say remembrance? He was telling them to remember his passion, that by it life comes because he offered himself once and for all for our sins.
Hebrews 10:10-12, “By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins: But this man, after HE HAD OFFERED ONE SACRIFICE FOR SINS FOREVER, sat down on the right hand of God;”
And Hebrews 10:16-18, “This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them; And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more. Now where remission of these is,**THERE IS NO MORE OFFERING FOR SIN.” **
And Hebrews 9:12, it is written, “Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.”
The thief on the cross next to Christ received salvation for believing on him, not for literally eating and drinking his flesh. So how was salvation given to this man? It was obviously given in the manner Christ had proclaimed it throughout all the gospels.
When Christ was among EVERY OTHER CROWD, he spoke of believing on him to receive eternal life, he told many, “your faith has saved you”. This has nothing to do with literally eating his flesh which saved them.
In regards to 1 Corinthians 10:16, This does not state they literally eat flesh and drink his blood. In the next verse, “Because there is one loaf, we, who are many, are one body, for we all share the one loaf.” He doesn’t say we share the flesh, its a loaf of bread. The one loaf of bread signifies the one body of believers. Yes, we can have symbolic meaning to our lives, just as we symbolically take up our crosses everyday through struggles other than a crucifixion. Just like we are branches of the vine.
As for 1 Corinthians 11:27-31
“So then, whoever eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty of sinning against the body and blood of the Lord. 28 Everyone ought to examine themselves before they eat of the bread and drink from the cup. 29 For those who eat and drink without discerning the body of Christ eat and drink judgment on themselves. 30 That is why many among you are weak and sick, and a number of you have fallen asleep. 31 But if we were more discerning with regard to ourselves, we would not come under such judgment.”
Notice in verse 28, “Everyone ought to examine themselves before they eat of the BREAD and drink from the CUP” Why doesn’t he say eat of his flesh and brink of his blood?
Well, given the context of this chapter, Paul is upset with people coming hungry to the memorial, or doing things privately or for getting drunk, etc. We can see here a few verses later, 1 Corinthians 11:33-34, “SO THEN”, my brothers and sisters, when you gather to eat, you should all eat together. 34 Anyone who is hungry should eat something at home, so that when you meet together it may not result in judgment." This is the issue Paul had… It wasn’t a matter of literally eating of Christ’s flesh.
As you can imagine I have many posts to read and respond to. Also, for you who said I call my Lord and Savior a liar, that is a bit inappropriate.
po18guy
Well-known member
It is your private interpretation of His words that we, and nearly two billion other eastern and western Christians, disagree with. If you are 100% certain that your interpretation is correct, doesn’t that make you infallible? If you do not believe that the Pope is infallible, I wonder how it is that you can claim to be so?
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Bossilla
Guest
Now I rejoice in what was suffered for you, and I fill up in my flesh what is still lacking in regard to Christ’s afflictions, for the sake of his body, which is the church.- Colossians 1:24
How could Paul say that anything about Christ’s sacrifice is lacking? /Lacking/! The nerve!
Because we all have a part in Jesus’s life, death, and resurrection. The sacrifice of goats, sheep, and cows has no further need in our faith. At every mass, we celebrate the Last Supper, Good Friday, and Easter Sunday. We relive Christ’s passion, death, and resurrection intimately at every single mass. That’s why Catholic mass is so important! And the Eucharist is the center of our mass! It is then that we are one with our bridegroom, our savior, our lord. Is it any wonder that the ancient Christians had what were called “Love feasts”?
Jesus did not ask more than faith of the people he healed because it was not yet time. He had to suffer, die, and then ascend to the Father. His hour had not yet come to be understood. The hour would come when the Holy Spirit would come to explain to the apostles the wisdom of God, but until then they would only be frightened sheep who would doubt. **“I still have many things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now."- John 16:12 **
Jesus’s purpose was not to answer every question that his disciples had. That was why the Holy Spirit came to the apostles- so that they could guide the newly formed church.
Traditions state that many of those whom Jesus healed became the first Christians, so then, they would have eventually taken part in the Love feasts= the Eucharist.
How could Paul say that anything about Christ’s sacrifice is lacking? /Lacking/! The nerve!
Because we all have a part in Jesus’s life, death, and resurrection. The sacrifice of goats, sheep, and cows has no further need in our faith. At every mass, we celebrate the Last Supper, Good Friday, and Easter Sunday. We relive Christ’s passion, death, and resurrection intimately at every single mass. That’s why Catholic mass is so important! And the Eucharist is the center of our mass! It is then that we are one with our bridegroom, our savior, our lord. Is it any wonder that the ancient Christians had what were called “Love feasts”?
Jesus did not ask more than faith of the people he healed because it was not yet time. He had to suffer, die, and then ascend to the Father. His hour had not yet come to be understood. The hour would come when the Holy Spirit would come to explain to the apostles the wisdom of God, but until then they would only be frightened sheep who would doubt. **“I still have many things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now."- John 16:12 **
Jesus’s purpose was not to answer every question that his disciples had. That was why the Holy Spirit came to the apostles- so that they could guide the newly formed church.
Traditions state that many of those whom Jesus healed became the first Christians, so then, they would have eventually taken part in the Love feasts= the Eucharist.
P
pgnat1
Guest
“Since Christ Himself has said, “This is My Body” who shall dare to doubt that It is His Body?”
-St. Cyril of Jerusalem
-St. Cyril of Jerusalem
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MarcoPolo
Guest
Since Catholics do not teach that the Eucharist is an additional sacrifice (it is the one singular sacrifice), these verses do not apply to the discussion (CCC#1367).
Incidentally, that the single Eucharistic offering is re-presented plurally in the world’s nations fulfills the prophecy of Malachi 1:11.
J
JM3
Guest
Verse 28 is followed by verse 29, listen carefully, 29 For those who eat and drink without discerning the body of Christ eat and drink judgment on themselves.
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Paulcor
Guest
These verses below are just after Christ feeding many people, who were not interested in his ministry, but in the food he was providing. Thus It is so apparently obvious that Christ was speaking about believing in him when he speaks of his flesh and blood. That they are so worried about being fed and kept in their temporal life and not so about his coming passion and word that brings them everlasting life.
John 6:35, “And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst”.
John 6:40, “And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.”
Again lets look at Luke 22:19, “This is my body given for you; do this in remembrance of me.”
Why can’t you see that he is alluding to his coming passion for the atonement of sins? Christ does NOT instruct them to offer any sacrifices in a priestly setting, he is the one doing that once and for all. He does not say, “do this to remove your sins and receive salvation”, he says do it to remember him. Nothing you can do or offer supplements his sacrifice on the cross… he has done it.
Another issue. How is it that the Catholic church takes John 6 to the literal “unless you eat the flesh AND drink the blood… you have no life in you”, yet the Catholic church has in the past banned laity from partaking of the cup?
John 6:35, “And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst”.
John 6:40, “And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.”
Again lets look at Luke 22:19, “This is my body given for you; do this in remembrance of me.”
Why can’t you see that he is alluding to his coming passion for the atonement of sins? Christ does NOT instruct them to offer any sacrifices in a priestly setting, he is the one doing that once and for all. He does not say, “do this to remove your sins and receive salvation”, he says do it to remember him. Nothing you can do or offer supplements his sacrifice on the cross… he has done it.
Another issue. How is it that the Catholic church takes John 6 to the literal “unless you eat the flesh AND drink the blood… you have no life in you”, yet the Catholic church has in the past banned laity from partaking of the cup?
C
Callin
Guest
You split up verse 19! In the beginning of that verse, Jesus is literally feeding them bread. That can’t be a coincidence. And why did you leave it out?
As for John 6, keep reading. Read all of John 6.
If someone misunderstood you, would you ask if they’re offended? Of course not. You’d correct them.
But Jesus doesn’t correct them. The disciples think he means literally eating them, and Jesus doesn’t back down.
K
kkollwitz
Guest
Catholics don’t depend on John 6 alone for their belief in the True Presence.
po18guy
Well-known member
The Body does not arrive without the Blood within it. We receive the entire Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity of Christ with either, or both species.
You clearly oppose the Holy Eucharist. Why, since billions of Christians, from day one, have believed in it?
And why, if our bible has lead us to a different practice than yours, do you even care? Methodists believe differently from you, and yet you do not give *them *grief???
po18guy
Well-known member
Amen!
That belief was firmly held long before a single jot of NT scripture ws written. Just as with the scriptures, it was handed on to succeeding generations of Christians. How few bible Christians realize that the bible is a tradition, too!Example, Protestants hold to the tradition of Luther as to the books of scripture.
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EricFilmer
Guest
Paulcor, out of curiosity, can you quote one Christian prior to the Reformation who interpreted John 6 the way you did in this thread?
If not, and if you still believe that your interpretation of John 6 is correct, then can you explain how literally billions of Christians, spread out in the various Christian Churches (Catholic, Eastern Orthodox & Oriental Orthodox), managed to miss this correct interpretation for 1500 years?
Moreover, if you do not believe that the doctrine of the Real Presence in the Eucharist is apostolic, then please explain who invented this doctrine and how he got all the various Churches which rose from the original Apostolic Sees to play along. For the record, that includes Churches in the ancient world spread out over three continents.
If not, and if you still believe that your interpretation of John 6 is correct, then can you explain how literally billions of Christians, spread out in the various Christian Churches (Catholic, Eastern Orthodox & Oriental Orthodox), managed to miss this correct interpretation for 1500 years?
Moreover, if you do not believe that the doctrine of the Real Presence in the Eucharist is apostolic, then please explain who invented this doctrine and how he got all the various Churches which rose from the original Apostolic Sees to play along. For the record, that includes Churches in the ancient world spread out over three continents.
K
kkollwitz
Guest
“These verses below are just after Christ feeding many people, who were not interested in his ministry, but in the food he was providing.”
Umm, no: “And a multitude followed him, because they saw the signs which he did on those who were diseased.”
And: “When the crowds learned it, they followed him; and he welcomed them and spoke to them of the kingdom of God, and cured those who had need of healing.”
Umm, no: “And a multitude followed him, because they saw the signs which he did on those who were diseased.”
And: “When the crowds learned it, they followed him; and he welcomed them and spoke to them of the kingdom of God, and cured those who had need of healing.”
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