P
pmoo
Guest
Well said. I think your work is done here
- Status
R
Rolltide
Guest
They are allowed, depending on the diocese and rite of the church. In the Latin Church, it’s more common to be baptized at birth, receive first communion around 2nd grade, and to receive confirmation between 7th and 10th grade. I received my first communion WELL before I was confirmed. It used to be more common that you were confirmed first, and then received communion. This is how the practice is done in the Eastern Catholic Churches.
C
cazayoux
Guest
My discussion suggested that to some, the use of the word ‘spirit’ in John 6 means ‘symbolic’.
I was showing what happens when one equates ‘spirit’ to ‘symbolic’.
In no way should this the two be equated.
Spirit is VERY real … MORE real than the physical.
Spirit does not equal symbolic.
Jesus was not speaking ‘symbolically’ in John 6.
michel
C
cazayoux
Guest
Why do you equate ‘spiritual’ with ‘symbolic’?
This is a wrong substitution.
I doubt you would agree that the trinity is the Father, Son, and Holy Symbolic.
Yes, Jesus was speaking spiritually.
He was not speaking symbolically.
michel
M
mikeledes
Guest
John 6:51-58 is to be interpreted literally and is one of the strongest passages that testify to the Real Presence in the Eucharist. In the Gospel of John, there is a certain pattern that helps to shed light on John 6. Whenever Jesus makes an ambiguous statement, it is usually followed by a misunderstanding/question, and this, in turn, is followed by a clarification either by Jesus or the Evangelist. So, this is the basic outline of this pattern:
John 2:19-21
Jesus answered them, “Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.” The Jews then said "It took forty-six years to build this temple, and you will raise it up in three days? But He was speaking of the temple of His body."
John 3:3-5
Jesus answered and said to him, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God.” Nicodemus said to him, "How can a man be born when he is old? He cannot enter a second time into his mother’s womb and be born, can he?Jesus answered, "Truly Truly I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit he cannot enter the kingdom of God."
John 4:32-34
"But He said to them, “I have food to eat that you do not know about.” So the disciples were saying to one another, 'no one brought Him anything to eat, did he? Jesus said to them, " My Food is to do the will of Him who sent me and to accomplish His work."
John 8:31-34
So Jesus was saying to those Jews who believed in Him, “If you continue in My word, then you are truly disciples of Mine; and you will know the truth, and the truth will make you free.” They answered Him, "We are Abraham’s descendants and have never been enslaved to anyone; how is it that You say, “You will become free.” Jesus answered them, "Truly, Truly I say to you, everyone who commits sin is the slave of sin.
Now let’s look at John 6:51-53 and see if it fits the Ambiguous Statement/Question/Clarification pattern:
"I am the living bread that came down out of heaven; if anyone eats this bread, he will live forever; and the bread also which I will give for the life of the world is My flesh." Then the Jews began to argue with one another, saying, "How can this man give us His flesh to eat? So Jesus said to them, Truly, Truly, I say to you unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood you have no life in yourselves.
So, following the established pattern, verse 53 is a clarification of verses 51-52. If he were merely speaking figuratively, then we would have expected the literal meaning of the “figurative” langauge he used, as it happens in the verses I gave above and in many other places in the Bible. Instead, what we see in verse 53 is a reaffirmation of what the Jews understood Jesus to mean. So the clarification is that Jesus was speaking literally, not figuratively. If he were speaking figuratively, He would have indicated that in verse 53.
God Bless,
Michael
- **Ambiguous Statement by Jesus **
- Misunderstanding/ Question
- Clarification
John 2:19-21
Jesus answered them, “Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.” The Jews then said "It took forty-six years to build this temple, and you will raise it up in three days? But He was speaking of the temple of His body."
John 3:3-5
Jesus answered and said to him, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God.” Nicodemus said to him, "How can a man be born when he is old? He cannot enter a second time into his mother’s womb and be born, can he?Jesus answered, "Truly Truly I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit he cannot enter the kingdom of God."
John 4:32-34
"But He said to them, “I have food to eat that you do not know about.” So the disciples were saying to one another, 'no one brought Him anything to eat, did he? Jesus said to them, " My Food is to do the will of Him who sent me and to accomplish His work."
John 8:31-34
So Jesus was saying to those Jews who believed in Him, “If you continue in My word, then you are truly disciples of Mine; and you will know the truth, and the truth will make you free.” They answered Him, "We are Abraham’s descendants and have never been enslaved to anyone; how is it that You say, “You will become free.” Jesus answered them, "Truly, Truly I say to you, everyone who commits sin is the slave of sin.
Now let’s look at John 6:51-53 and see if it fits the Ambiguous Statement/Question/Clarification pattern:
"I am the living bread that came down out of heaven; if anyone eats this bread, he will live forever; and the bread also which I will give for the life of the world is My flesh." Then the Jews began to argue with one another, saying, "How can this man give us His flesh to eat? So Jesus said to them, Truly, Truly, I say to you unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood you have no life in yourselves.
So, following the established pattern, verse 53 is a clarification of verses 51-52. If he were merely speaking figuratively, then we would have expected the literal meaning of the “figurative” langauge he used, as it happens in the verses I gave above and in many other places in the Bible. Instead, what we see in verse 53 is a reaffirmation of what the Jews understood Jesus to mean. So the clarification is that Jesus was speaking literally, not figuratively. If he were speaking figuratively, He would have indicated that in verse 53.
God Bless,
Michael
M
mikeledes
Guest
The point of the above post is that when Jesus is speaking figuratively, either Jesus Himself or the Gospel writer explains what He means. He often uses progressive revelation as a teaching method, going from ambiguity to greater clarity. There are numerous examples of this in the 4 Gospels. Here are some more:
John 4:10-14
**10Jesus answered and said to her, “If you knew the gift of God, and who it is who says to you, ‘Give Me a drink,’ you would have asked Him, and He would have given you living water.”
11She said to Him, “Sir, You have nothing to draw with and the well is deep; where then do You get that living water?
12"You are not greater than our father Jacob, are You, who gave us the well, and drank of it himself and his sons and his cattle?”
13Jesus answered and said to her, “Everyone who drinks of this water will thirst again;
14but whoever drinks of the water that I will give him shall never thirst; but the water that I will give him will become in him a well of water springing up to eternal life.” **
John 8:56-58
**56"Your father Abraham rejoiced to see My day, and he saw it and was glad."
57So the Jews said to Him, “You are not yet fifty years old, and have You seen Abraham?” 58Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I am.” **
John 10:1-10
**1"Truly, truly, I say to you, he who does not enter by the door into the fold of the sheep, but climbs up some other way, he is a thief and a robber.
2"But he who enters by the door is a shepherd of the sheep.
3"To him the doorkeeper opens, and the sheep hear his voice, and he calls his own sheep by name and leads them out.
4"When he puts forth all his own, he goes ahead of them, and the sheep follow him because they know his voice.
5"A stranger they simply will not follow, but will flee from him, because they do not know the voice of strangers."
6This figure of speech Jesus spoke to them, but they did not understand what those things were which He had been saying to them.
7So Jesus said to them again, "Truly, truly, I say to you, I am the door of the sheep.
8"All who came before Me are thieves and robbers, but the sheep did not hear them.
9"I am the door; if anyone enters through Me, he will be saved, and will go in and out and find pasture.
10"The thief comes only to steal and kill and destroy; I came that they may have life, and have it abundantly. **
John 7:38-39
38"He who believes in Me, as the Scripture said, ‘From his innermost being will flow rivers of living water.’"
39But this He spoke of the Spirit, whom those who believed in Him were to receive
John 12:32-33
**32 And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all peoples to Myself.” 33 This He said, signifying by what death He would die. **
John 21:18-19
**18 Most assuredly, I say to you, when you were younger, you girded yourself and walked where you wished; but when you are old, you will stretch out your hands, and another will gird you and carry you where you do not wish.” 19 This He spoke, signifying by what death he would glorify God. **
Matthew 16:6-12
6 Then Jesus said to them, “Take heed and beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and the Sadducees.” 7 And they reasoned among themselves, saying, “It is because we have taken no bread.”
8 But Jesus, being aware of it, said to them, “O you of little faith, why do you reason among yourselves because you have brought no bread?[a] 9 Do you not yet understand, or remember the five loaves of the five thousand and how many baskets you took up? 10 Nor the seven loaves of the four thousand and how many large baskets you took up? 11 How is it you do not understand that I did not speak to you concerning bread?—but to beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and Sadducees.” 12 Then they understood that He did not tell them to beware of the leaven of bread, but of the doctrine of the Pharisees and Sadducees.
This does not happen in John 6.
God Bless,
Michael
John 4:10-14
**10Jesus answered and said to her, “If you knew the gift of God, and who it is who says to you, ‘Give Me a drink,’ you would have asked Him, and He would have given you living water.”
11She said to Him, “Sir, You have nothing to draw with and the well is deep; where then do You get that living water?
12"You are not greater than our father Jacob, are You, who gave us the well, and drank of it himself and his sons and his cattle?”
13Jesus answered and said to her, “Everyone who drinks of this water will thirst again;
14but whoever drinks of the water that I will give him shall never thirst; but the water that I will give him will become in him a well of water springing up to eternal life.” **
John 8:56-58
**56"Your father Abraham rejoiced to see My day, and he saw it and was glad."
57So the Jews said to Him, “You are not yet fifty years old, and have You seen Abraham?” 58Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I am.” **
John 10:1-10
**1"Truly, truly, I say to you, he who does not enter by the door into the fold of the sheep, but climbs up some other way, he is a thief and a robber.
2"But he who enters by the door is a shepherd of the sheep.
3"To him the doorkeeper opens, and the sheep hear his voice, and he calls his own sheep by name and leads them out.
4"When he puts forth all his own, he goes ahead of them, and the sheep follow him because they know his voice.
5"A stranger they simply will not follow, but will flee from him, because they do not know the voice of strangers."
6This figure of speech Jesus spoke to them, but they did not understand what those things were which He had been saying to them.
7So Jesus said to them again, "Truly, truly, I say to you, I am the door of the sheep.
8"All who came before Me are thieves and robbers, but the sheep did not hear them.
9"I am the door; if anyone enters through Me, he will be saved, and will go in and out and find pasture.
10"The thief comes only to steal and kill and destroy; I came that they may have life, and have it abundantly. **
John 7:38-39
38"He who believes in Me, as the Scripture said, ‘From his innermost being will flow rivers of living water.’"
39But this He spoke of the Spirit, whom those who believed in Him were to receive
John 12:32-33
**32 And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all peoples to Myself.” 33 This He said, signifying by what death He would die. **
John 21:18-19
**18 Most assuredly, I say to you, when you were younger, you girded yourself and walked where you wished; but when you are old, you will stretch out your hands, and another will gird you and carry you where you do not wish.” 19 This He spoke, signifying by what death he would glorify God. **
Matthew 16:6-12
6 Then Jesus said to them, “Take heed and beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and the Sadducees.” 7 And they reasoned among themselves, saying, “It is because we have taken no bread.”
8 But Jesus, being aware of it, said to them, “O you of little faith, why do you reason among yourselves because you have brought no bread?[a] 9 Do you not yet understand, or remember the five loaves of the five thousand and how many baskets you took up? 10 Nor the seven loaves of the four thousand and how many large baskets you took up? 11 How is it you do not understand that I did not speak to you concerning bread?—but to beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and Sadducees.” 12 Then they understood that He did not tell them to beware of the leaven of bread, but of the doctrine of the Pharisees and Sadducees.
This does not happen in John 6.
God Bless,
Michael
M
mikeledes
Guest
Here are a couple of more examples:
John 8:21-24
**21Then He said again to them, “I go away, and you will seek Me, and will die in your sin; where I am going, you cannot come.”
22So the Jews were saying, “Surely He will not kill Himself, will He, since He says, ‘Where I am going, you cannot come’?”
23And He was saying to them, “You are from below, I am from above; you are of this world, I am not of this world.
24"Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for unless you believe that I am He, you will die in your sins.” **
John 8:26-29
**26"I have many things to speak and to judge concerning you, but He who sent Me is true; and the things which I heard from Him, these I speak to the world."
27They did not realize that He had been speaking to them about the Father.
28 So Jesus said, “When you lift up the Son of Man, then you will know that I am He, and I do nothing on My own initiative, but I speak these things as the Father taught Me.
29"And He who sent Me is with Me; He has not left Me alone, for I always do the things that are pleasing to Him.” **
God Bless,
Michael
John 8:21-24
**21Then He said again to them, “I go away, and you will seek Me, and will die in your sin; where I am going, you cannot come.”
22So the Jews were saying, “Surely He will not kill Himself, will He, since He says, ‘Where I am going, you cannot come’?”
23And He was saying to them, “You are from below, I am from above; you are of this world, I am not of this world.
24"Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for unless you believe that I am He, you will die in your sins.” **
John 8:26-29
**26"I have many things to speak and to judge concerning you, but He who sent Me is true; and the things which I heard from Him, these I speak to the world."
27They did not realize that He had been speaking to them about the Father.
28 So Jesus said, “When you lift up the Son of Man, then you will know that I am He, and I do nothing on My own initiative, but I speak these things as the Father taught Me.
29"And He who sent Me is with Me; He has not left Me alone, for I always do the things that are pleasing to Him.” **
God Bless,
Michael
M
mikeledes
Guest
John 6:63
63 It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life
This verse does not mean that Jesus was speaking figuratively. The word “Spirit” is used to refer to those things that pertain to God and the word “flesh” refers to those things that pertain to sin. We constantly see the Spirit vs. flesh construct thorughout the Bible:
Galatians 5:16
16 I say then: Walk in the Spirit, and you shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh. 17 For the flesh lusts against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; and these are contrary to one another, so that you do not do the things that you wish.
Romans 8:5-6
5 For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. 6 For to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace
So what Jesus meant in John 6:63 was not that he was speaking figuratively. Rather, that His words originate from God (i.e. Spirit) and they are life giving (i.e. life). He said this in response to the rejection of His teaching. Those who were “carnally minded” rejected His teaching, while those who were “spiritually minded” accepted it. If one is in the flesh, one cannot accept His words because the flesh wars against the Spirit, effectively cutting off the person from the source of life. Consequently, the flesh profits nothing because its end is death. Those who are in the Spirit receive life (Romans 8:6). To be “carnally minded” does not mean to be literally minded. It means to have a mind that is in rebellion against God. Those who were in such a state did not accept Jesus’s words.
God Bless,
Michael
63 It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life
This verse does not mean that Jesus was speaking figuratively. The word “Spirit” is used to refer to those things that pertain to God and the word “flesh” refers to those things that pertain to sin. We constantly see the Spirit vs. flesh construct thorughout the Bible:
Galatians 5:16
16 I say then: Walk in the Spirit, and you shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh. 17 For the flesh lusts against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; and these are contrary to one another, so that you do not do the things that you wish.
Romans 8:5-6
5 For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. 6 For to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace
So what Jesus meant in John 6:63 was not that he was speaking figuratively. Rather, that His words originate from God (i.e. Spirit) and they are life giving (i.e. life). He said this in response to the rejection of His teaching. Those who were “carnally minded” rejected His teaching, while those who were “spiritually minded” accepted it. If one is in the flesh, one cannot accept His words because the flesh wars against the Spirit, effectively cutting off the person from the source of life. Consequently, the flesh profits nothing because its end is death. Those who are in the Spirit receive life (Romans 8:6). To be “carnally minded” does not mean to be literally minded. It means to have a mind that is in rebellion against God. Those who were in such a state did not accept Jesus’s words.
God Bless,
Michael
M
mikeledes
Guest
When Jesus said that He would give His flesh for the life of the world, the Jews reponded (John 6:52):
**52 The Jews therefore quarreled among themselves, saying, “How can this Man give us His flesh to eat?” **
This is similar to an earlier response to Jesus’s claim that He is the Bread that came down from heaven (John 6:41-42):
**41 The Jews then complained about Him, because He said, “I am the bread which came down from heaven.” 42 And they said, “Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? How is it then that He says, ‘I have come down from heaven’?” **
In the case of the latter, did the Jews understand Jesus correctly, namely, that He literally came down from heaven? They did! Jesus literally - not figuratively - came down from heaven. This is one instance where Jesus was speaking literally and the Jews understood Him to be speaking literally. The other example comes a couple of verses later in John 6. Jesus makes a statement that the Jews take literally and He reaffirms that their basic understanding of what He said is correct (John 6:51-58). Eating His Flesh and drinking His Blood is as literal as His coming down from Heaven. His return to Heaven (ascension) will reaffirm the truths of His origin and of what He said of His flesh and blood. That’s why He responds (John 6:61-62):
61 When Jesus knew in Himself that His disciples complained about this, He said to them, “Does this offend you? 62 What then if you should see the Son of Man ascend where He was before?
His ascension will vindicate His words and thus prove that the words He spoke are spirit and life, that is, that they are of God and are life-giving.
God bless,
Michael
**52 The Jews therefore quarreled among themselves, saying, “How can this Man give us His flesh to eat?” **
This is similar to an earlier response to Jesus’s claim that He is the Bread that came down from heaven (John 6:41-42):
**41 The Jews then complained about Him, because He said, “I am the bread which came down from heaven.” 42 And they said, “Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? How is it then that He says, ‘I have come down from heaven’?” **
In the case of the latter, did the Jews understand Jesus correctly, namely, that He literally came down from heaven? They did! Jesus literally - not figuratively - came down from heaven. This is one instance where Jesus was speaking literally and the Jews understood Him to be speaking literally. The other example comes a couple of verses later in John 6. Jesus makes a statement that the Jews take literally and He reaffirms that their basic understanding of what He said is correct (John 6:51-58). Eating His Flesh and drinking His Blood is as literal as His coming down from Heaven. His return to Heaven (ascension) will reaffirm the truths of His origin and of what He said of His flesh and blood. That’s why He responds (John 6:61-62):
61 When Jesus knew in Himself that His disciples complained about this, He said to them, “Does this offend you? 62 What then if you should see the Son of Man ascend where He was before?
His ascension will vindicate His words and thus prove that the words He spoke are spirit and life, that is, that they are of God and are life-giving.
God bless,
Michael
M
mikeledes
Guest
Some have argued that John 6:51-58 is about faith and that Jesus gives the explanation of the “metaphor” prior to actually using the metaphor. However, this goes against Jesus’s established teaching methods. Whenever Jesus explains a parable, the explanation usually comes after he has given the parable, such as in the case of the parables of the sower and the wheat and the tares. If John 6:51-58 were talking about faith, then there would be no controversy because he just talked about faith in v.v. 29 -35. And as I have shown in two other posts, the established pattern in Jesus’s method of teaching/preaching is one of progressive revelation. He moves from ambiguity to greater clarity, not from clarity to greater ambiguity. So he would not start with the literal meaning first (i.e. faith) and then use the figure, as occurs in John 6. Also, when He does use figurative language difficult to understand, either He or the evangelist explains what He means. Moreover, John 6:56 talks about “abiding.”
56"He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood abides in Me, and I in him.
The Greek word translated “abiding” is “meno,” which means to continue, stay, remain, etc. Thus the assumption is that the person who abides in Christ has already come to faith in Him and has already been incorporated into Christ. Hence, abiding occurs subsequent to coming to Christ in faith and incorporation. What is being decribed here is an act rooted in faith, but not identical to faith.
John 15:3-4
**3"You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you.
4"Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself unless it abides in the vine, so neither can you unless you abide in Me. **
1 John 2:28
28Now, little children, abide in Him, so that when He appears, we may have confidence and not shrink away from Him in shame at His coming.
So eating the Body of Christ and drinking His Blood is a means of abiding in Christ. Thus it was most appropriate for Him to start with faith in chapter 6 and then move to abiding in Christ through the Eucharist because coming to faith precedes abiding and one must believe* first *before partaking of the Eucharist. Only those who abide in Christ will continue to have eternal life and will be raised on the last day.
John 15:4-6
**4"Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself unless it abides in the vine, so neither can you unless you abide in Me.
5"I am the vine, you are the branches; he who abides in Me and I in him, he bears much fruit, for apart from Me you can do nothing.
6"If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away as a branch and dries up; and they gather them, and cast them into the fire and they are burned. **
God Bless,
Michael
56"He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood abides in Me, and I in him.
The Greek word translated “abiding” is “meno,” which means to continue, stay, remain, etc. Thus the assumption is that the person who abides in Christ has already come to faith in Him and has already been incorporated into Christ. Hence, abiding occurs subsequent to coming to Christ in faith and incorporation. What is being decribed here is an act rooted in faith, but not identical to faith.
John 15:3-4
**3"You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you.
4"Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself unless it abides in the vine, so neither can you unless you abide in Me. **
1 John 2:28
28Now, little children, abide in Him, so that when He appears, we may have confidence and not shrink away from Him in shame at His coming.
So eating the Body of Christ and drinking His Blood is a means of abiding in Christ. Thus it was most appropriate for Him to start with faith in chapter 6 and then move to abiding in Christ through the Eucharist because coming to faith precedes abiding and one must believe* first *before partaking of the Eucharist. Only those who abide in Christ will continue to have eternal life and will be raised on the last day.
John 15:4-6
**4"Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself unless it abides in the vine, so neither can you unless you abide in Me.
5"I am the vine, you are the branches; he who abides in Me and I in him, he bears much fruit, for apart from Me you can do nothing.
6"If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away as a branch and dries up; and they gather them, and cast them into the fire and they are burned. **
God Bless,
Michael
K
Koopa
Guest
:newidea: Oh! I was not aware of this! Now I understand the confusion. I’m Latin rite, and I just assumed everybody received Communion in 1st grade before Confirmation (in 8th).
Much to learn, much to learn!
PS… Latin rite doesn’t actually mean in LATIN, right (besides Tridentine)? Just means it is the traditional Catholic mass?
Thanks.
E
emeraldisle
Guest
I accept your apology for your mistake in trying to speak for me.
I understand that you are saying that your purpose in this thread was to present the idea of transubstantiation and you have done this well. However my purpose in this thread is to show that the transubstantiation idea is wrong according to what the Lord Jesus said in John 6.
Personally I think it’s pretty interesting that a person who has already indicated that they are thinking of joining the Roman Catholic Church is persuaded of the idea of transubstantiation by a few quotes from men as apposed to believing what the Lord Jesus said. However I understand that a person who is thinking of joining the Roman Catholic Church has already accepted that Gods revealed Truth can be found outside of His written word. Therefore they can be persuaded by other sources that contradict Gods written word.
Ok so your position is, it looks like bread, it tastes like bread, but it’s not bread it’s been transformed into the Lord Jesus’ flesh but when you examine it and taste it is sure is bread!
Thanks for your apology for misinterpreting my words, you should really stick to trying to explain your own words. The two main points I’m making in this thread are that the Lord Jesus has interpreted His own words in John 6 and His interpretation doesn’t need to be re-interpreted. So the context of all my comments is that the Lord Jesus has interpreted His own words so I’m saying that people shouldn’t take heed of any person who is trying to re-interpret the Lord Jesus’ interpretation in John 6. Of course I already know that Roman Catholics are not able to have private interpretations of the Scriptures.
The Lord Jesus’ interpretation of His words in John 6 are crystal clear. As for your use of 70% again well I have already explained to you that the majority of people who hear the very clear message of the gospel don’t believe it and they believe other false ideas.
A wise person understands that God is all knowing, He is the Truth and that He has revealed His Truth in His written word. A foolish person accepts the thoughts of man that contradict Gods Truth that’s in His written word.
Once again I’ll post the Lord Jesus’ interpretation of His own words;
It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life. John 6:63
Hi Prof, please give yourself a big pat on the back
Bank tellers are trained to spot forgeries by getting to know the real money so well. When I compare the idea of transubstantiation with what the Lord Jesus says then I truly know that the idea of transubstantiation is completely false. The transubstantiation idea is a pretty good forgery but the Lord Jesus’ words expose it as a false idea.
Non- biblical documents that contradict Gods written word are wrong. The non-biblical documents that support the idea of transubstantiation, which contradicts the Lord Jesus’ words are plain wrong.
The key is the source of the evidence not the volume or quantity of evidence. The source of the evidence for transubstantiation is fallible men and the source for the Truth that the bread is bread and it is to be eaten in remembrance of the Lord Jesus’ perfect sacrifice is the infallible Lord Jesus.
Are you trying to suggest that the Gods written word is insufficient, that I need to present some other document to you? I mean the Scriptures very clearly prove that the idea of transubstantiation is completely and totally false.
14 How then shall they call on Him in whom they have not believed? And how shall they believe in Him of whom they have not heard? And how shall they hear without a preacher? 15 And how shall they preach unless they are sent? As it is written: “ How beautiful are the feet of those who preach the gospel of peace, Who bring glad tidings of good things!” 16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, “LORD, who has believed our report?” 17 So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. Rom 10:14-17
Nice try but this is a flawed subjective argument. I’m sure you know that some Christians convert to other religions like Islam, Buddhism, Hinduism etc. How does it happen, well these Christians reject Gods word as the source of all His revealed Truth. Understand??
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stephraim
Guest
Perhaps we should also consider that Our Lord did not say, “MY flesh profiteth nothing,” but “THE flesh…” It is a discourse on faith, for certainly, if flesh is of no consequence, then His suffering on the cross was no help to humanity. Notice also, the disciples left **after **this sentence. If he was assuring them he spoke symbolically, they most likely would not have withdrawn. Plus, the phrase “eat my flesh” already had a symbolic meaning: to persecute, murder, etc. Our Lord would have been exhorting the crowd to violence and grievous sin, a command running counter to all of His teaching. We should also look at other times He spoke symbolically, like in John 11:11-14 or Matthew 16: 5-12. In each instance, he corrects and explains. God bless.
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sebestt
Guest
I would just like to thank everyone for their incredible explanations of transubstantiation! It has helped me reaffirm what I already know. God Bless each of you because it makes Daily Mass that much more special. I think many Catholics on here are thankful and can easily see the truth based on your convincing and clear explanations.
emeraldisle: I have been praying for you every day now and lighting a votive candle for you. God Bless you!
emeraldisle: I have been praying for you every day now and lighting a votive candle for you. God Bless you!
M
mesl4
Guest
For the person who keeps asking how the priests got authority to turn the bread and wine into Christ’s flesh and blood, maybe it would help to think of it this way: GOD CHOSE to make his flesh and blood enter our bodies via the prayer/blessing of a preist upon the bread and wine. He allows us to enjoy it more by keeping it tasting like bread and wine, and knew it might be “hard to swallow” literally eating flesh and blood. This way, we can know the mystery of the connection he’s providing us, without tasting it. Just like he CHOSE to use baptisism and laying on hands as a means of pouring our his spirit on us, prayer as a means of communicating w/him, or the rod of Moses as a means of pouring out his power in those days, etc. God seems to like heirarchy. Not saying that anyone is less important or worthy of salvation /honor or respect than anyone else, just that he’s always used heirarchy in terms of priests/bishops/etc, apart from lay people. This is something I’ve learned that as a Protestant, didn’t make sense to me/I didn’t believe. I don’t know, just a thought.
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Koopa
Guest
Emeraldisle, could you please specifically respond to post #169, paragraphs 11-14? What do you find wrong with that interpretation?
You mean when you examine it it has the same results as bread. It seems that you are trying to base this part of your argument on the fact that it would be impossible for something to have the appearance of bread but really be the Lord. If God can become a man, rise from the dead, turn water into wine, and walk on water, what makes it so impossible for him to take the place of the substance of bread? If you were not trying to say that transubstantiation is a ridiculous idea then I apologize in advance and will again.
Praise God! :bowdown2:
V
VociMike
Guest
I think the proper way to look at all of this, and so much else besides, is that God always and everywhere invites us to join with him in his work of creation, sanctification and salvation. So many things become so much more clear when viewed in that light. Sure, he could do it all himself, but as a loving Father he rejoices in calling us to work with him in the good that he does. What loving father would not do the same?
Very true. Look at the Old Testament. Look at the organization of the angels. Look at the family structure.
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onetimeposter
Guest
K
Koopa
Guest
It would still be one heck a mystery if the bread actually turned into flesh and blood!
Just to be picky, we believe it does actually turn into flesh and blood. If you are referring to the appearance of flesh and blood, perhaps you should look up the Eucharistic miracle of Lanciano.
Running out of post closers… but all well! :dancing:
Just to be picky, we believe it does actually turn into flesh and blood. If you are referring to the appearance of flesh and blood, perhaps you should look up the Eucharistic miracle of Lanciano.
Running out of post closers… but all well! :dancing:
K
Koopa
Guest
Yes, those things are all referenced in the Bible. A Priest having the power to turn bread into the Son of God’s flesh and blood is not referenced. The Church leaders decided that it would be so.
1412 The essential signs of the Eucharistic sacrament are wheat bread and grape wine, on which the blessing of the Holy Spirit is invoked and the priest pronounces the words of consecration spoken by Jesus during the Last Supper: “This is my body which will be given up for you. . . . This is the cup of my blood. . . .”
-Catechism of the Catholic Church
I think it would be more accurate to describe it in this fashion, that the priest invokes the blessing of the Holy Spirit, and the Holy Spirit transforms the bread into Christ. This is what is meant by priests “confecting” the sacrament. Please don’t think that the priests have some kind of “magic”.
And no, the Bible does not directly state that priests will be able to confect the sacrament of the Eucharist, but you can certainly infer it from the Bible. Just as the Bible does not directly state that the Holy Trinity is Three Persons; Father, Son, and Holy Spirit; in one God, but you can certainly infer that.
1412 The essential signs of the Eucharistic sacrament are wheat bread and grape wine, on which the blessing of the Holy Spirit is invoked and the priest pronounces the words of consecration spoken by Jesus during the Last Supper: “This is my body which will be given up for you. . . . This is the cup of my blood. . . .”
-Catechism of the Catholic Church
I think it would be more accurate to describe it in this fashion, that the priest invokes the blessing of the Holy Spirit, and the Holy Spirit transforms the bread into Christ. This is what is meant by priests “confecting” the sacrament. Please don’t think that the priests have some kind of “magic”.
And no, the Bible does not directly state that priests will be able to confect the sacrament of the Eucharist, but you can certainly infer it from the Bible. Just as the Bible does not directly state that the Holy Trinity is Three Persons; Father, Son, and Holy Spirit; in one God, but you can certainly infer that.
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