Trayvon Martin: Before the world heard the cries

[scipio337]

This is a little over the top…

I am no lawyer, but from what I have read that’s not the case. The stand your ground law doesn’t say if someone is following you then you have the right to kill them.

The fact is Zimmerman did not do anything illegal leading up to the altercation.

Zimmerman did not break the law by carrying a gun.
Zimmerman did not break the law by following Martin.
Zimmerman did not break the law by confronting Martin.
Zimmerman did not break the law by reporting Martin.

Poor judgment – maybe - but if that were enough to arrest someone we would need a lot more cells in this country.

With that said, the fault is with whoever initiated the physical altercation – which is still up for debate.
Zimmerman’s lawful actions prior to the altercation are no more culpable than Martin’s lawful actions.

The stand you r ground law in question states “A person who is not engaged in an unlawful activity and who is attacked in any place where he or she has the right to be has not duty to retreat and has the right to stand his or her ground and meet force with force…”

Seems to me the key is who attacked who – and merely confronting someone does not constitute an attack.

My prayers are with all those involved in this tragedy.

cfnews13.com/content/dam/news/static/cfnews13/documents/Stand-Your-Ground-Law-2005.pdf

This is true.

It all boils down to if Zimmerman has any valid claims to self defense. If he was attacked first, he did. If he was not physically attacked, he did not.

 

[seekerz]

Terrible nightmare for the parents.

BUT… as far as the media/gossipmongers…someone on CAF wrote that the father had been looking for him for 3 days before the police admitted where he was. This was only 12 hours later, and immediately after the father first called the police.

Another example of false reports, slandering, hate mongering, manipulating, etc.

Look how the “facts” keep changing. Even the report that the lead detective wanted to arrest Zimmerman --a fact coming from lawyers–turned out to be false.

We shouldn’t be playing these games with people’s lives and reputations. It’s not Catholic. And I don’t want Jesus to judge me in a similar manner.

I’ve heard the 3 days applied to how long it took the parents to have access to their son’s body. That may have turned into searching for him for 3 days, but unless someone was deliberately being dishonest I would say these things happen with repetition.

As for the lead detective wanting to arrest Zimmerman:

The lead homicide investigator in the shooting of unarmed teenager Trayvon Martin recommended that neighborhood watch captain George Zimmerman be charged with manslaughter the night of the shooting, multiple sources told ABC News.

(emphasis mine). Source: abcnews.go.com/US/trayvon-martin-dogged-disciplinary-problems-school/story?id=16011674#.T34mBKvZD4M.

I believe I read somewhere that at least one source did not want to be identified, so it is not clear who this claim came from or, to my knowledge, whether it has been proven false. Far as I know it has been denied but that does not make it false.

 

[seekerz]

For one thing, it makes you no better than someone who kills someone else.

How about saying I wish the two could have shaken hands and shared skittles?

I don’t get the “makes you no better” part. Is self-defense not a recognized right for everyone? What if both felt their lives under threat due to misunderstanding the other’s intent (remember Zimmerman was armed and was not some sort of uniformed security official; and Martin had been pegged by him as “up to no good”)? The outcome could simply have been a result of bad judgment on Zimmerman’s part (the chase), influenced by a poorly thought out law.

 

[Havard]

I don’t get the “makes you no better” part. Is self-defense not a recognized right for everyone? What if both felt their lives under threat due to misunderstanding the other’s intent (remember Zimmerman was armed and was not some sort of uniformed security official; and Martin had been pegged by him as “up to no good”)? The outcome could simply have been a result of bad judgment on Zimmerman’s part (the chase), influenced by a poorly thought out law.

I think what he’s saying is based on the supposition that Trayvon didn’t know Zimmerman was armed?

In that case, Trayvon would be justified in fighting back with non-lethal force, because lethal force is only justified when there’s a threat of lethal force.

 

[He_Man]

I don’t get the “makes you no better” part. Is self-defense not a recognized right for everyone? What if both felt their lives under threat due to misunderstanding the other’s intent (remember Zimmerman was armed and was not some sort of uniformed security official; and Martin had been pegged by him as “up to no good”)? The outcome could simply have been a result of bad judgment on Zimmerman’s part (the chase), influenced by a poorly thought out law.

Just seems odd to root for someone to die rather than simply wish no one got involved with danger.

 

[SwizzleStick]

"Lawyers: Zimmerman whispered ‘punks’ before shooting Trayvon Martin

Sanford, Florida (CNN) – George Zimmerman told his lawyers that he whispered “punks,” not a racial slur, in the moments before he shot Trayvon Martin, his attorneys told CNN on Thursday."…

Blue excerpt from article here: cnn.com/2012/04/05/justice/florida-teen-shooting/index.html?eref=rss_crime

 

[SwizzleStick]

"City of Sanford prepares for response to George Zimmerman decision
Zimmerman shot, killed Trayvon Martin in February

SANFORD, Fla. - The city of Sanford is preparing for the outcome of the special prosecutor’s decision about George Zimmerman, the neighborhood watchman who shot and killed 17-year-old Trayvon Martin but has not been charged.

Sanford Mayor Jeff Triplett said on Thursday that the city’s emergency management team has met regularly with the U.S Department of Justice to construct a plan. Officials said extra police officers and fire department officials are on standby. Neighboring agencies have also been asked to assist, if needed."…

Blue excerpt from article here: clickorlando.com/news/City-of-Sanford-prepares-for-response-to-George-Zimmerman-decision/-/1637132/10276020/-/xeilns/-/index.html

 

[donsnow]

Maybe others have read most of this before, but I hadn’t seen some of these details, so just a bit more info about what may have happened the night Martin died, though who knows about the accuracy.

"Trayvon Martin: Before the world heard the cries

SANFORD, Florida (Reuters) - Tracy Martin had been looking for his son Trayvon since the night before. He went to bed figuring the teen must have gone to the movies and turned off his phone. When Trayvon still wasn’t home in the morning, Martin called the police."…

Blue excerpt from: my.news.yahoo.com/trayvon-martin-world-heard-cries-032755828.html

Good evening, SwizzleStick,

Thank you for this link. The Rueters story fills in a lot of the blanks, as well as raising more questions.

But, at least now, I know it was Crump who started the witch hunt.

God loves you,
Don

 

[donsnow]

I heard Alveda King say Trayvons death was a “late abortion”. She continued to say, that Trayvons life was cut short, as were his hopes and dreams, and that of his family. I never heard it put that way. For me, it tied the life of all children of God, cut short by mans ignorance of His God, even more potent. Prayers for all… who are effected by these circumstances.

Good evening, Devoted22,

I don’t know how Ms King could say that. I’m strongly pro-life and I fail to see how Trayvon’s death relates to the abortion scene.

My view has ameliorated since the previous thread. I accept pnewton’s observation that if G. Zimmerman had stayed in his vehicle, Trayvon would be alive without changing my opinion that if T. Martin had kept walking to Ms Green’s apartment, he’d be alive. Both men were wrong and now two families suffer and a nation is in a media firestorm.

God loves you,
Don

 

[donsnow]

This is a little over the top…

I am no lawyer, but from what I have read that’s not the case. The stand your ground law doesn’t say if someone is following you then you have the right to kill them.

The fact is Zimmerman did not do anything illegal leading up to the altercation.

Zimmerman did not break the law by carrying a gun.
Zimmerman did not break the law by following Martin.
Zimmerman did not break the law by confronting Martin.
Zimmerman did not break the law by reporting Martin.

Poor judgment – maybe - but if that were enough to arrest someone we would need a lot more cells in this country.

With that said, the fault is with whoever initiated the physical altercation – which is still up for debate.
Zimmerman’s lawful actions prior to the altercation are no more culpable than Martin’s lawful actions.

The stand you r ground law in question states “A person who is not engaged in an unlawful activity and who is attacked in any place where he or she has the right to be has not duty to retreat and has the right to stand his or her ground and meet force with force…”

Seems to me the key is who attacked who – and merely confronting someone does not constitute an attack.

My prayers are with all those involved in this tragedy.

cfnews13.com/content/dam/news/static/cfnews13/documents/Stand-Your-Ground-Law-2005.pdf

Good evening, mtbender,

I appreciate your well balanced post.

I also appreciate your link to the Florida Senate bill which abrogated the “duty to retreat” and originated the “Stand your ground” law. More states need to do the same. However, I think what we’re going to see is Crump attempt to contest the Stand your Ground clause, because that’s what prevents G. Zimmerman’s arrest.

However, if I had been Crump, I would have told Trayvon’s parents to abide by Florida law and explained G. Zimmerman couldn’t be arrested by law. I can’t help but wonder how much of Crump’s Pro Bono efforts are to seek his own glory and how much are to help Trayvon’s parents.

God loves you,
Don

 

[donsnow]

I don’t get the “makes you no better” part. Is self-defense not a recognized right for everyone? What if both felt their lives under threat due to misunderstanding the other’s intent (remember Zimmerman was armed and was not some sort of uniformed security official; and Martin had been pegged by him as “up to no good”)? The outcome could simply have been a result of bad judgment on Zimmerman’s part (the chase), influenced by a poorly thought out law.

Good evening, seekerz,

I don’t know about the Sanford, Fla PD, but to my experience, the Fort Worth, TX PD views a state certified uniformed Security Officer as Joe Citizen in an uniform. And, I think they’re right, having served as Joe Citizen in an uniform.

Personally, I think Florida’s “Stand Your Ground” law is well thought out and needs no amending nor adjusting. In my mind, it was human nature and not the law that brought this tragedy about.

God loves you,
Don

God loves you,
Don

 

[Faith1960]

On top of it the father brings the kid to spend the night with his girlfriend, leaves the kid at her place alone while he goes out for dinner with her and the kid never comes back all night and the father does nothing? Doesn’t go looking for the kid? Doesn’t call the police?

All these conflicting stories don’t add up.

I guess that when his father went to sleep the night this all happened, he wasn’t thinking that a “child” was missing, but, instead a near-man.

 

[Faith1960]

Look how the “facts” keep changing. Even the report that the lead detective wanted to arrest Zimmerman --a fact coming from lawyers–turned out to be false.

We shouldn’t be playing these games with people’s lives and reputations. It’s not Catholic. And I don’t want Jesus to judge me in a similar manner.

Did this come from the Martin family lawyers? There’s one lawyer of theirs who’s been on TV interviews who really appears to be full of baloney.

 

[donsnow]

Good evening, all,

What hurts me most, is the parents’ pain.

God loves all of you, lurkers, too,
Don

 

[donsnow]

I’ve heard the 3 days applied to how long it took the parents to have access to their son’s body. That may have turned into searching for him for 3 days, but unless someone was deliberately being dishonest I would say these things happen with repetition.

As for the lead detective wanting to arrest Zimmerman:

(emphasis mine). Source: abcnews.go.com/US/trayvon-martin-dogged-disciplinary-problems-school/story?id=16011674#.T34mBKvZD4M.

I believe I read somewhere that at least one source did not want to be identified, so it is not clear who this claim came from or, to my knowledge, whether it has been proven false. Far as I know it has been denied but that does not make it false.

Hi, again,

Thanks for the link. I think it’s probable that the story is true, as far as the original investigator wanting to bring manslaughter charges against George. And, there wasn’t enough evidence to make the charge stick.

God loves you,
Don

 

[didymus]

The stand you r ground law in question states “A person who is not engaged in an unlawful activity and who is attacked in any place where he or she has the right to be has not duty to retreat and has the right to stand his or her ground and meet force with force…”
%between%

Too bad Trayvon Martin didn’t have a gun. He had every right to “stand his ground” when approached by a hostile stranger.
If some weirdo were tailing me in his car, then I saw him approaching him on foot, I would fear for my own safety.

You may be right that it was legal for Zimmerman to confront Martin but it shouldn’t be. A private person has no business stopping and questioning others. If he tried that on me I’d tell him to go to Hell.

I’m tired of debating legal niceties, Zimmerman is morally guilty. Martin’s blood is on his hands.

 

[CatholicBoy1957]

You may be right that it was legal for Zimmerman to confront Martin but it shouldn’t be. A private person has no business stopping and questioning others.

I guess I haven’t read nearly enough of this story. Is that what Zimmerman did, he confronted Martin? Zimmerman stopped and questioned Martin?

I missed those parts.

 

[donsnow]

Too bad Trayvon Martin didn’t have a gun. He had every right to “stand his ground” when approached by a hostile stranger.
If some weirdo were tailing me in his car, then I saw him approaching him on foot, I would fear for my own safety.

You may be right that it was legal for Zimmerman to confront Martin but it shouldn’t be. A private person has no business stopping and questioning others. If he tried that on me I’d tell him to go to Hell.

I’m tired of debating legal niceties, Zimmerman is morally guilty. Martin’s blood is on his hands.

Good evening, didymus,

Usually I agree with your posts. But, I have to speak up on this one. I think George Zimmerman is morally clean of murder and acted in justifiable self defense.

God loves you,
Don

 

[incense]

As for the lead detective wanting to arrest Zimmerman:

(emphasis mine). Source: abcnews.go.com/US/trayvon-martin-dogged-disciplinary-problems-school/story?id=16011674#.T34mBKvZD4M.

I believe I read somewhere that at least one source did not want to be identified, so it is not clear who this claim came from or, to my knowledge, whether it has been proven false. Far as I know it has been denied but that does not make it false.

Somewhere on the thread that hit 1000 posts, towards the end, someone had a link that said the detective himself denied it and was calling for an investigation to find out who invented the tale. (I maybe should look it up, but I’m taking the easier road and hoping the poster will re-post.)

Who knows what’s true? That’s the point we should keep in mind. But we do know that many lies are being passed around and agitating people. And once the lie is found out, they stay agitated. Which makes you wonder if there is any penalty for being a liar. They’re getting exactly what they want.

I’m personally pretty ticked when I find out I’ve acted wrongly because of believing a lie. And I no longer trust the liar. But apparently, that’s not a common trait in America.

 

[Et_Cetera]

This is every parent’s nightmare. I couldn’t continue reading the story after the second paragraph. How many of us have been exactly where Trayvon’s father was that night: waiting for your child to check in, getting angry at him for turning off his cell phone, imagining the worse, and then experiencing that intense feeling of relief when you finally hear your child’s voice once again… only Tracy Martin never did get that last part.

According to this absurd “stand your ground” law, Trayvon Martin would have been justified in killing George Zimmerman. He would have been acting perfectly within his rights to have smashed the guys head to a pulp on the concrete of the sidewalk. **If I were Trayvon’s parents, I would wish he had. **

Sybrina Fulton and Tracy Martin are better people than I. They have shown the same sort of dignity and courage that characterizes so many of our African-American citizens throughout the hundreds of years of oppression they have experienced in this nation. I believe they should be held in the same sort of honor as Mamie Till Bradley, the mother of Emmett Till, who with great courage insisted that the world see what a horror had been done to her son, her baby, because he was a black boy.

I cannot hear Sybrina Fulton speak without breaking into tears. All she is asking is for justice for her son. That means two things must happen: 1) George Zimmerman must be arrested and tried for manslaughter, 2) this law must be amended to clearly state that if you choose to pursue someone, you will be held fully accountable by the law for any escalation in violence that may occur and whatever consequences result.

Yes!