Trayvon Martin: Before the world heard the cries

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catharina said:
My own impression?

It’s shocking to many adults that anyone can shoot a young stranger
who is armed with skittles and an iced tea - and then just walk
away from it without charges.

It’s shocking to me after working with young people for 40+ yrs
and especially shocking to hear folks (Catholic posters) demean
the dead individual for his choice of clothing.

Who is safe when such thinking runs riot?
The extraordinary interest? Due perhaps to the extraordinary facts?
Due also perhaps to the extraordinary venom expressed in some posts?
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👍
 
catharina said:
My own impression?

It’s shocking to many adults that anyone can shoot a young stranger
who is armed with skittles and an iced tea - and then just walk
away from it without charges.

It’s shocking to me after working with young people for 40+ yrs
and especially shocking to hear folks (Catholic posters) demean
the dead individual for his choice of clothing.

Who is safe when such thinking runs riot?
The extraordinary interest? Due perhaps to the extraordinary facts?
Due also perhaps to the extraordinary venom expressed in some posts?
Click to expand...
I agree their has been “extraordinary venom” from posters on this topic. I’ve seen it from both sides. The uncharitable assumptions about the police, the accused and the victim have been pretty shameful. Your posts included.

Let’s all hope that justice prevails.
 
OrdinaryMelkite said:
Well, it’s up to a jury now. Apparently the state of Florida thought there is definitely “something there” to warrant a trial. So “take it up with them” if you don’t think there is a possibility of “unprovoked and unwarranted” and “sweeping under the carpet.”😛

And yes, we are speculating here. Like you are. We are not in the jury, so we can do that.
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When have I said that it wasn’t possible that the shooting was “unprovoked and unwarranted?” Please find one of my posts that demonstrates speculation.
 
rlg94086 said:
I agree their has been “extraordinary venom” from posters on this topic. I’ve seen it from both sides. The uncharitable assumptions about the police, the accused and the victim have been pretty shameful. Your posts included.

Show me those, please.
Thank you.

Let’s all hope that justice prevails.
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Indeed.
 
Vincent_N said:
Absurd. GZ shot TM in self defense when retreat was not possible. This has never been refuted.
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This is conjecture. None of this is substantiated. If he is charged, then George Zimmerman will have the burden of proof for self defense.

I do not think we should rush to judgement and assume a crime at this point. I refer to the crime your statement assumes Martin committed.
 
pnewton said:
This is conjecture. None of this is substantiated. If he is charged, then George Zimmerman will have the burden of proof for self defense.

I do not think we should rush to judgement and assume a crime at this point. I refer to the crime your statement assumes Martin committed.
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I’m not a lawyer as Rich pointed out BUT won’t the prosecution have to prove it was not self-defense?🤷
 
pnewton said:
This is conjecture. None of this is substantiated. If he is charged, then George Zimmerman will have the burden of proof for self defense.

I do not think we should rush to judgement and assume a crime at this point. I refer to the crime your statement assumes Martin committed.
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Interesting. So, the burden of proof is on the accused in this case? Does he has to prove himself innocent beyond a reasonable doubt?
 
Forget the case. This incident is being used by professional, well-paid agitators to foment race violence. Many people are only too happy to comply. This is proven in the fake kiddie picture of the boy in question and a deliberate manipulation on the part of the media. This is what should be focused on and the cause of outrage.

Naturally, this is lost on most people.
 
rlg94086 said:
Sure. When I’m on my Mac, rather than my iPad, I will gladly assemble a "catharina’s greatest hits for you from the ~2500 posts on this topic.
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As you do that, see if you can determine when/why I was asked to “tone it down.”
See too if you can determine whether I did so. Thank you.

Random “shots” such as you made regarding me are unwelcome unless verified.

PS - aren’t the posts over 4000 by now?
 
gilliam said:
No, he will not. The State will have the burdon of proof that Zimmerman committed 2nd degree murder.
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It depends on his defense. If he’s going to argue self-defense, he’s taking an affirmative defense-admitting that he fired the weapon that killed Trayvon Martin, but arguing that his action was okay. He doesn’t have the same burden of proof as the prosecution (beyond a reasonable doubt) but he does have a burden of proof (preponderance of the evidence).

That was argued earlier in this thread, but that’s still the way I read the law, even with stand-your-ground in place. The removal of the duty to retreat doesn’t remove the requirement to present evidence for an affirmative defense.
 
catharina said:
As you do that, see if you can determine when/why I was asked to “tone it down.”
See too if you can determine whether I did so. Thank you.

Random “shots” such as you made regarding me are unwelcome unless verified.

PS - aren’t the posts over 4000 by now?
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As I said, I will be happy to verify them. It sounds to me like you already have, based on your mention of the request for you to “tone it down.” 😛

Regarding post count, sure. I couldn’t remember how many threads were closed due to the 1k+ maximum. As I said, the issue has had an extraordinarily high level of interest compared to other issues of the day. It even eclipsed the Republican Primaries.
 
maryjk said:
In the United States, the accused enjoy the presumption of innocence. The prosecutor must “prove beyond a reasonable doubt” his guilt.
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The prosecutor will have to show that Zimmerman shot and killed Martin beyond reasonable doubt. The burden of proof is on Zimmerman that it was self-defense, though that does not have as high a standard of proof.
 
iamrefreshed said:
I’m not a lawyer as Rich pointed out BUT won’t the prosecution have to prove it was not self-defense?🤷
Click to expand...
Interesting. So, the burden of proof is on the accused in this case? Does he has to prove himself innocent beyond a reasonable doubt?
Click to expand...
Yes, the burden of proof is on the accused if he chooses to claim self-defense. That’s an affirmative defense (“Yes, I did it, but it was okay because…justifiable homicide/self-defense/temporary insanity.”)

He doesn’t have to prove himself innocent beyond a reasonable doubt, but he is required to show a preponderance of the evidence to justify self-defense.
 
rlg94086 said:
Interesting. So, the burden of proof is on the accused in this case? Does he has to prove himself innocent beyond a reasonable doubt?
Click to expand...
Preponderance of evidence. Think 51%, though a jury can do what they want with that. That is why we have juries. If they think justice is best serve by giving him more benefit of the doubt than perhaps a judge would, they can find him not guilty.
 
Lujack said:
It depends on his defense. If he’s going to argue self-defense, he’s taking an affirmative defense-admitting that he fired the weapon that killed Trayvon Martin, but arguing that his action was okay. He doesn’t have the same burden of proof as the prosecution (beyond a reasonable doubt) but he does have a burden of proof (preponderance of the evidence).

That was argued earlier in this thread, but that’s still the way I read the law, even with stand-your-ground in place. The removal of the duty to retreat doesn’t remove the requirement to present evidence for an affirmative defense.
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Right. He doesn’t have to prove self defense. He just has to present a compelling case to provide reasonable doubt. That’s what will make it difficult for the prosecution to get a 2nd degree murder conviction IMO.
 
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