Trayvon Martin: 'Shoot first' law under scrutiny

[Lujack]

We don’t know a lot of things. We are all speculating and filling in gaps. Even the police and DA who chose not to arrest Zimmerman were not privey to his state of mind. If this were to come to trial the jury would have to speculate as well.

Or are you suggesting that such speculation is a right reserved to the mob?

So if you feel Zimmerman was in the wrong, you’re a mindless member of a lynch mob. If you feel Martin was in the wrong, you’re the brave defender of truth.

I see how this works.

 

[Bubba_Switzler]

No, it only requires that Zimmerman have presented a credible threat to Trayvon Martin.

If Zimmerman presented a credible threat to Martin by questioning him then certainly Martin presented a credible threat to Zimmermen by beating him to the ground. Hence my point.

 

[Lujack]

If Zimmerman presented a credible threat to Martin by questioning him then certainly Martin presented a credible threat to Zimmermen by beating him to the ground. Hence my point.

Except if Zimmerman was threatening enough towards Martin that Martin was reasonable in attempting to defend himself, Zimmerman cannot then claim self-defense because he was the one who initiated the altercation!

 

[Rich_Olszewski]

We don’t know a lot of things. We are all speculating and filling in gaps. Even the police and DA who chose not to arrest Zimmerman were not privey to his state of mind. If this were to come to trial the jury would have to speculate as well.

Or are you suggesting that such speculation is a right reserved to the mob?

Not at all. State of mind is a very important factor in homicide cases, and yes, it is up to the jury to decide that when establishing the degree of culpability.

 

[Bubba_Switzler]

Except if Zimmerman was threatening enough towards Martin that Martin was reasonable in attempting to defend himself, Zimmerman cannot then claim self-defense because he was the one who initiated the altercation!

That is incorrect. Even if Martin felt threatened, a claim for which there is no evidence, Zimmerman would still be justified if Martin was beating him to the ground.

Martin was on top of Zimmerman, beating him to a pulp, when the fatal shot was fired, according to the witness.

 

[Bubba_Switzler]

Not at all. State of mind is a very important factor in homicide cases, and yes, it is up to the jury to decide that when establishing the degree of culpability.

I didn’t say it was unimportant, I said that we are all speculating about it and that the jury, if it comes to trial, will also specualte about it.

 

[Charlotte408]

Not at all. State of mind is a very important factor in homicide cases, and yes, it is up to the jury to decide that when establishing the degree of culpability.

I’m going out on a limb here…I think someone has already implied that I am a racist for even commenting on black on white issue threads, so…

Since we bring up ‘state of mind’ - I’ve been reading reports that Martin’s facebook page has comments where his friends are hitting him up for ‘plants’.

Being the urbanized chick I am I can take an educated guess that they’re talkin’ about weed. Is it possible that Martin was a small time drug user and may have been high at the time of the meeting with Zimmerman? Could this have attributed to Zimmerman thinking this kid was acting suspiciously?

http://www.riehlworldview.com/.a/6a00d83451c1db69e20163033e0c4c970d-500wi

 

[Lujack]

That is incorrect. Even if Martin felt threatened, a claim for which there is no evidence, Zimmerman would still be justified if Martin was beating him to the ground.

Martin was on top of Zimmerman, beating him to a pulp, when the fatal shot was fired, according to the witness.

There is exactly as much evidence for Martin feeling threatened as there is for Martin being on top of Zimmerman-we have an eyewitness who says Martin was on top of Zimmerman, and we have Martin’s girlfriend who says that Martin told her he was afraid.

We have an eyewitness and an earwitness, effectively. And if Zimmerman threatened Martin, he’s committed the first unlawful act-Martin was exercising his right to self-defense.

 

[Rich_Olszewski]

I didn’t say it was unimportant, I said that we are all speculating about it and that the jury, if it comes to trial, will also specualte about it.

The jury isn’t “speculating.” If they determine that the defendant’s state of mind didn’t warrant a finding of 1st Degree Murder, but of Manslaughter, then that’s what it is. They don’t play guessing games.

 

[Lujack]

Is it possible that Martin was a small time drug user and may have been high at the time of the meeting with Zimmerman? Could this have attributed to Zimmerman thinking this kid was acting suspiciously?

Now that’s a claim with absolutely no evidence behind it whatsoever.

 

[Charlotte408]

Now that’s a claim with absolutely no evidence behind it whatsoever.

I think we are all speculating at this point.

But with every little bit of info comes a little more insight, no?

 

[Bubba_Switzler]

The jury isn’t “speculating.” If they determine that the defendant’s state of mind didn’t warrant a finding of 1st Degree Murder, but of Manslaughter, then that’s what it is. They don’t play guessing games.

Everyone speculates in the absence of knowledge. Even juries. Speculation is not “guessing”.

 

[Lujack]

I think we are all speculating at this point.

But with every little bit of info comes a little more insight, no?

Some of us are ground our speculation in facts. Others are looking for every possible justification to make Trayvon Martin into a big bad thug and George Zimmerman into a night in shining armor.

 

[Rich_Olszewski]

Is it possible that Martin was a small time drug user and may have been high at the time of the meeting with Zimmerman?

There isn’t a shred of evidence for that.

Similarly, it’s just as possible that Zimmerman could have been asking the kid to perform homosexual acts on him.

If folks on the Forum are speculating, those two possibilities are equally possible.

 

[Bubba_Switzler]

Is it possible that Martin was a small time drug user and may have been high at the time of the meeting with Zimmerman? Could this have attributed to Zimmerman thinking this kid was acting suspiciously?

While that is certainly possible, I don’t think it is relevant. Whatever Zimmerman’s reasons for being suspicious and for acting against the advice of 911, he had apparently turned his back on Martin and was returning to his car when Martin attacked him.

If Zimmerman had approached Martin thinking that Martin was a brother from another planet it would not be relevant to his claim of self defense.

 

[Bubba_Switzler]

Some of us are ground our speculation in facts.

Yes, let’s stick to that, please.

 

[Rich_Olszewski]

Everyone speculates in the absence of knowledge. Even juries. Speculation is not “guessing”.

Juries aren’t speculating. It is obvious that you aren’t an attorney with some knowledge of mens rea and actus reus.

 

[scipio337]

Some of us are ground our speculation in facts. Others are looking for every possible justification to make Trayvon Martin into a big bad thug and George Zimmerman into a night in shining armor.

I would say the inverse is also true.

We have 800+ posts on a topic that people in general know very little about, and that may or may not come to trial or criminal charges.

Everything really is “speculation” at this point. The one thing anyone knows for sure is that a young man is dead. I’m praying for him and his family.

 

[L_piperatus]

You keep wanting to whitewash Martin’s contribution to his own death which includes beating Zimmerman to the ground. No beating Zimmerman to the ground, no death.

Yeah. If Zimmerman is telling the truth, if Martin truly jumped him from behind while he was walking back to his truck, I would find it impossible to see Martin innocent and as the victim in his own death.

I say, let’s see what will the investigation yield. Was it Zimmerman who hit first, or was it Martin?

So how many punches would someone, me, have to take before I could use deadly force?

I don’t know whether people remember, but a few weeks ago two 12-y.o. girls got into a fistfight, the fight only lasted a few seconds, but one of the girls suffered cerebral hemorrhage and died within several hours. There was also the case of two men having a fistfight a few months ago, the whole fight lasted only about 10 to 15 seconds, but the man who was beaten up died on the spot of his injuries. The fight itself occurred in a police station, police immediately got emergency medical help, but the man died anyway.

Fistfights can really range from mild to deadly, and I wouldn’t try to play down the danger like Lujack did in his post.

 

[SamH]

Some of us are (have) ground(ed) our speculation in facts. Others are looking for every possible justification to make Trayvon Martin into a (k)night in shining armor and George Zimmerman into a big bad thug .

Maybe that’s what you meant to write?