Trayvon Martin: 'Shoot first' law under scrutiny

[Scott_Lafrance]

We don’t know that. What we do know is that a witness reported to the police that she heard Martin crying for help and was promptly “corrected” by that officer and told that she heard Zimmerman not Martin. What we do know is that we’re dealing with a police department that is not only reluctant to investigate this case but has been trying to sweep every bit of evidence implicating a crime under the rug from day one.

Yes, because the police of Sanford have a vested interest in covering up what many are describing as a racially motivated hate crime, in spite of all the publicity.

 

[Scott_Lafrance]

Trayvon Martin was legitimately “standing his ground”, as per the law. This of course assumes that Trayvon was indeed beating on Zimmerman.

That’s the sad thing about this whole thing: Trayvon should have been the one protected by this law, but instead he became the victim.

Peace and God bless!

Well, from what I have read and heard, Zimmermann is going to be the subject of a massive wrongful death civil lawsuit.

 

[L_piperatus]

Trayvon Martin was legitimately “standing his ground”, as per the law. This of course assumes that Trayvon was indeed beating on Zimmerman.

That’s the sad thing about this whole thing: Trayvon should have been the one protected by this law, but instead he became the victim.

Peace and God bless!

I still wonder how they ended up in the physical fight.

Imagining a security guard or watch person running after someone in a gated community, I would assume this watch person yelling something like “Excuse me Sir, I’m the neighborhood watch person and if you don’t mind me asking, do you live here or are you visiting someone in this gated community?” To this, the visitor could simply reply something like “Sure, Sir, my father lives here and I came to visit him. I understand your concern for keeping this community safe.”

Something like the above conversation, is what I imagine would go down between a neighborhood watch person and a visitor, under ordinary circumstances, and it would never escalate into a physical fight.

This is what I am thinking about. What went wrong here? How did these two people end up in a fistfight, what went on leading up to the scene described by the eyewitness, the scene of Zimmerman laying on the ground and Martin on top of him, punching him in the face?

 

[pnewton]

This is what I am thinking about. What went wrong here?

I think the comments of Zimmerman on the tape yield a clue to what went wrong. It belies the nice converstation you posted. Martin’s first response was to get away. Zimmerman’s first response was anger and profanity. Things might have changed after that, but that is speculative at this point.

 

[Lujack]

I still wonder how they ended up in the physical fight.

Imagining a security guard or watch person running after someone in a gated community, I would assume this watch person yelling something like “Excuse me Sir, I’m the neighborhood watch person and if you don’t mind me asking, do you live here or are you visiting someone in this gated community?” To this, the visitor could simply reply something like “Sure, Sir, my father lives here and I came to visit him. I understand your concern for keeping this community safe.”

Something like the above conversation, is what I imagine would go down between a neighborhood watch person and a visitor, under ordinary circumstances, and it would never escalate into a physical fight.

This is what I am thinking about. What went wrong here? How did these two people end up in a fistfight, what went on leading up to the scene described by the eyewitness, the scene of Zimmerman laying on the ground and Martin on top of him, punching him in the face?

But Martin already felt threatened by Zimmerman. It should also be noted that Zimmerman has no real legal right to do anything-he can ask Martin any question he wants, of course, but Martin would be perfectly be within his rights to give him the “name, rank, serial number” routine, and nobody could fault him for that-Trayvon Martin has every right to be walking there, he doesn’t know Zimmerman from Adam, and he was already creeped out by the fact that a strange man was following him down a dark street. I don’t see why Zimmerman’s presence and questions should make Martin feel safer; everything that Zimmerman did that night would almost certainly have put Martin increasingly on edge (and rightly so, as events proved).

Edit: This gated community didn’t even have a neighborhood watch, so Zimmerman wasn’t even acting in any “official” capacity (and even if he was on a neighborhood watch, he still has no official powers of any kind).

 

[Lujack]

Yes, because the police of Sanford have a vested interest in covering up what many are describing as a racially motivated hate crime, in spite of all the publicity.

Because the police have never done anything like this before.

Seriously, I have the utmost admiration for police officers and anyone else who puts their lives on the line, but are you seriously going to argue that it is completely unbelievable that a police department would cover up a case like this? There are corrupt cops, racist cops, poorly and incompetently run police departments-such things do exist. I do not know this to be the case in Sanford, but I don’t see why the very thought that this might happen is absurd and ridiculous on the face of it.

 

[Charlotte408]

But Martin already felt threatened by Zimmerman. It should also be noted that Zimmerman has no real legal right to do anything-he can ask Martin any question he wants, of course, but Martin would be perfectly be within his rights to give him the “name, rank, serial number” routine, and nobody could fault him for that-Trayvon Martin has every right to be walking there, he doesn’t know Zimmerman from Adam, and he was already creeped out by the fact that a strange man was following him down a dark street.

Did it happen on a ‘dark street’? I thought this happened during the afternoon for some reason.

Zimmerman has every right to ask a person questions.

Martin had every right not to answer them and keep it moving.

One lesson I learned in life - the hard way - is you do NOT put your hands on other people. Once you hit someone, you are in the wrong. Period. Until it comes out who threw that first punch everyone has their blood pressure up for nothing IMHO.

 

[Charlotte408]

I do not know this to be the case in Sanford, but I don’t see why the very thought that this might happen is absurd and ridiculous on the face of it.

I think it’s because of everyone jumping to conclusions without any details. I really don’t think the media shouldn’t be allowed to do that, tell half baked stories.

 

[incense]

I read through all 12 pages of discussion last night, and you guys scare me.

With only a handful of facts, you have people convicted of assault, murder, racism, cover-ups, wanna-be cop syndrome, etc.

Luckily there’s not a tree and a rope near by, or the vigilante party would get their “justice” done.

The irony of the people claiming racism is especially astounding. They don’t want people judged by the color of their skin, but they’re pretty quick to convict with so little information.

And then, when some new facts came in later, they were quickly dismissed as not important or created. Reminds me of the saying “Don’t confuse me with the facts, my mind’s made up!”

Scary.

 

[Lujack]

I read through all 12 pages of discussion last night, and you guys scare me.

With only a handful of facts, you have people convicted of assault, murder, racism, cover-ups, wanna-be cop syndrome, etc.

Luckily there’s not a tree and a rope near by, or the vigilante party would get their “justice” done.

The irony of the people claiming racism is especially astounding. They don’t want people judged by the color of their skin, but they’re pretty quick to convict with so little information.

And then, when some new facts came in later, they were quickly dismissed as not important or created. Reminds me of the saying “Don’t confuse me with the facts, my mind’s made up!”

Scary.

The difference is that when I make my judgment on little information (except, you know, the 911 call in which the dispatcher specifically tells Zimmerman not to follow Trayvon Martin), it leads to me posting on an internet message board, and if I turn out to be wrong, I can apologize for it. Mr. Zimmerman convicted Trayvon Martin on very little information…and Trayvon Martin is dead. His life is over and he will never be able to go to college, have kids, see the world; he’ll never be able to give his friends a high-five again and he’ll never be able to tell a girl that he loves her and he’ll never be able to hug his mother and father again.

That, to me, is scary.

 

[L_piperatus]

Did it happen on a ‘dark street’? I thought this happened during the afternoon for some reason.

Zimmerman has every right to ask a person questions.

Martin had every right not to answer them and keep it moving.

One lesson I learned in life - the hard way - is you do NOT put your hands on other people. Once you hit someone, you are in the wrong. Period. Until it comes out who threw that first punch everyone has their blood pressure up for nothing IMHO.

I seem to remember from news stories that the death occurred around 7 pm - that would be evening dusk, right around nightfall, since the clock wasn’t moved to daylight savings time yet.

I also wonder, who threw that first punch.

 

[pnewton]

The irony of the people claiming racism is especially astounding. They don’t want people judged by the color of their skin, but they’re pretty quick to convict with so little information…

If you are new to this thread, perhaps you missed Zimmerman using “f-g coon” on the tape. After hearing that, I will not be convinced that this is not about race. No one has mentioned a rope and a tree or said he was guilty. It is the lack of charges that is discussed. But go ahead and judge away and perpetuate the irony.

 

[Calgar]

If you are new to this thread, perhaps you missed Zimmerman using “f-g coon” on the tape. After hearing that.

I listened to the tape, I didn’t hear that.

 

[maryjk]

If you are new to this thread, perhaps you missed Zimmerman using “f-g coon” on the tape. After hearing that, I will not be convinced that this is not about race. No one has mentioned a rope and a tree or said he was guilty. It is the lack of charges that is discussed. But go ahead and judge away and perpetuate the irony.

I must have missed where they have determined that he said that. I was under the impression that others heard other words like, goon or punk. Or am I wrong?

 

[Calgar]

It will certainly be interesting to hear his defense attorneys explain how a Stand Your Ground law is a license to chase someone down the street and accost them with a loaded gun. Zimmerman initiated a confrontation so he cannot claim self-defense. The prosecution can, and probably will, argue that it was in fact Martin who had the right to defend himself from a loose cannon stalking him in the night and chasing after him with a deadly weapon. It is Martin to whom the Stand Your Ground law applies not Zimmerman.

How can you possibly know any of this?

There were no witnesses. I’m all for justice, but we have a legal system that requires evidence for a reason. And the reason is so an outraged public, with nothing but opinons, can’t just throw people in prison because they are angry at them.

 

[Calgar]

he had obeyed the officer on the phone.

I just want to point out that 911 dispatchers aren’t “officers” and even if they were we, as Americans, are not under any obligation to “obey” them.

 

[maryjk]

It will certainly be interesting to hear his defense attorneys explain how a Stand Your Ground law is a license to chase someone down the street and accost them with a loaded gun. Zimmerman initiated a confrontation so he cannot claim self-defense. The prosecution can, and probably will, argue that it was in fact Martin who had the right to defend himself from a loose cannon stalking him in the night and chasing after him with a deadly weapon. It is Martin to whom the Stand Your Ground law applies not Zimmerman.

Your post is making me think that Zimmerman didn’t have his gun out. If he did, how in the world did he end up on the ground being beaten?

I don’t know about anyone else that carries concealed, but I don’t brandish my weapon. It stays neatly tucked away. That is until I feel the need to take it out, if I feel threatened. That has happened only once. I certainly wouldn’t walk up to someone that I perceived as a threat with my weapon still tucked away. Okay, I wouldn’t walk up to someone I perceived as a threat, BUT if I was going to walk up to someone that I thought was threatening, I would have my weapon out. That only makes sense.

So why didn’t he?

 

[maryjk]

I just want to point out that 911 dispatchers aren’t “officers” and even if they were we, as Americans, are not under any obligation to “obey” them.

No kidding.

Remember the woman in the trailer with two guys breaking in? Didn’t the dispatcher asked the woman if she had a place where she could HIDE. This poor woman had an infant with her.

She would have been dead if she had listened to the dispatcher.

 

[Charlotte408]

Well Obama didn’t wait long to jump on this. Told you I called distraction.

Obama, 15 minutes ago - ‘If I had a son…he would have looked like Trayvon’

 

[L_piperatus]

No kidding.

Remember the woman in the trailer with two guys breaking in? Didn’t the dispatcher asked the woman if she had a place where she could HIDE. This poor woman had an infant with her.

She would have been dead if she had listened to the dispatcher.

Good point. Besides, the dispatcher said to Zimmerman, “we don’t need you to do that”.

So, in effect, this is not an officer telling him “I order you not to follow him”, but rather a non-officer telling “we don’t need you…”