Trayvon Martin: 'Shoot first' law under scrutiny

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Lujack said:
That’s actually one “if”, and I pointed out that its likely going to be the major issue of the trial. Maybe I should carefully restate my position so that I can’t be accused of being in a lynch mob or being opposed to the rule of law:

**Zimmerman is morally culpable for the death of Trayvon Martin because instead of leaving things to the professionals, he took the responsibility for confronting suspects on himself. He is also morally culpable because he doesn’t seem to have had any reasonable grounds for even suspecting Trayvon Martin, because he failed to listen to the advice of a professional, or to follow the guidelines of the national Neighborhood Watch association (namely, not to go around armed and not to confront suspects himself.

He may be legally culpable. It seems to me to be likely that he is. I do believe that the facts, on their face, merit a trial so that they can be more closely examined by the proper people. I think that on general principles most “Stand Your Ground” self-defense cases (as opposed to those that take place in the home) should probably end in trial; self-defense is an affirmative defense and using lethal force is an extreme action that does legally need to be justified (unless in case of a home invasion, in which case the person claiming self-defense gets the benefit of the doubt because, well, their home has been invaded.**
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A 911 operator is a “professional” in what way?
 
Lujack said:
A broken nose and stitches to the head are not “being beaten to a bloody pulp”. Those are ugly injuries, sure, but many times a broken nose isn’t even a serious injury.
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For real??? If my kid had a broken nose and her head busted open I’d be freakn the heck out :eek:
 
Charlotte408 said:
For real??? If my kid had a broken nose and her head busted open I’d be freakn the heck out :eek:
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Oh, I would be too (even if I don’t have kids right now). Then again, though, my mom would be freaking out if I crashed my bike and got some nice bruisers and a bleeding cut. That doesn’t change that a broken nose isn’t a really serious injury; half the time you can’t even do anything for it. And Zimmerman was in a fight-if you’re going to claim you were “beaten to a bloody pulp” in a fight, I’d think that your injuries would need to be more serious than something that one punch can do. After all, fist hits face, head hits ground gets you a broken nose and stitches to the back of the head.
 
SamH said:
A 911 operator is a “professional” in what way?
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Acc to the manual prepared by the National Sheriffs’ Association

usaonwatch.org/assets/publications/0_NW_Manual_1210.pdf

“REMEMBER:
Community members only serve as the extra “eyes and ears” of law enforcement. They should report their observations of suspicious activities to law enforcement; however, citizens should never try to take action on those observations. Trained law enforcement should be the only ones ever to take action based on observations of suspicious activities.”

It’s a lengthy document, 37 pages.
Or like George Zimmerman, you can wing it and do it your way.

Suit yourself.
George’s way resulted in a dead child.
The manual’s way calls for WAITING for police.
 
Lujack said:
Oh, I would be too (even if I don’t have kids right now). Then again, though, my mom would be freaking out if I crashed my bike and got some nice bruisers and a bleeding cut. That doesn’t change that a broken nose isn’t a really serious injury; half the time you can’t even do anything for it. And Zimmerman was in a fight-if you’re going to claim you were “beaten to a bloody pulp” in a fight, I’d think that your injuries would need to be more serious than something that one punch can do. After all, fist hits face, head hits ground gets you a broken nose and stitches to the back of the head.
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Just as an aside, one punch can kill a person. It is not unusal. Injuries determined after the fact does not mean the person receiving them was not in fear of their life. In the movies people get hit multiple times and brush it off. In real life much less force can kill a person.
 
I can think of three incidents off the top of my head, in my general area, where guys have died from a single punch. I don’t think any of us, myself included, know all the facts in this case, but it will not surprise me at all, if in the days ahead, details emerge that give us a good idea of why the police did not arrest Zimmerman. When I first posted in this thread on page 3 I think, I thought this was a clear case of an overzealous wannabe cop, who severely overreacted, but now, I’m not so sure that that’s what happened.
 
fix said:
Just as an aside, one punch can kill a person. It is not unusal. Injuries determined after the fact does not mean the person receiving them was not in fear of their life. In the movies people get hit multipile times and brush it off. In real life much less force can kill a person.
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Oh, yeah-this is why you should generally avoid getting into fights because you never know how someone would fall. That doesn’t change the fact, though, that claiming Zimmerman was “beaten to a bloody pulp” is hyperbole at best.
 
pnewton said:
Before you shoot in a confrontation that you initiated, I would say that it would not be justified unless one was in fear of death, being beaten far worse than a bloody nose, and the other person would not quit at the threat of deadly force.
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The problem is that if you brandish a pistol with the intent to scare the other party, you can be arrested for assault with a deadly weapon. If it ever gets to the point where you think you need to use deadly force, you had better use it. You either keep your strap in its skin and take your beating, or you draw and fire. There is little middle ground.
 
Lujack said:
Oh, yeah-this is why you should generally avoid getting into fights because you never know how someone would fall. That doesn’t change the fact, though, that claiming Zimmerman was “beaten to a bloody pulp” is hyperbole at best.
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Not just from falling. The blow itself can kill. Anyway, I am not taking sides in this issue. I wanted to point out that trauma determined after an event that turned out to be minor only means that the recipient was fortunate that time.
 
fix said:
Not just from falling. The blow itself can kill. Anyway, I am not taking sides in this issue. I wanted to point out that trauma determined after an event that turned out to be minor only means that the recipient was fortunate that time.
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Fortunate in every way since he’s alive and the child is dead.
 
catharina said:
Did the innocent child cause the outcome, his own death?
He too probably wished to live another day, even many more years. No stalking (done against police advice) no encounter, no shooting, no dead child.
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You keep wanting to whitewash Martin’s contribution to his own death which includes beating Zimmerman to the ground. No beating Zimmerman to the ground, no death.
 
Lujack said:
Oh, I would be too (even if I don’t have kids right now). Then again, though, my mom would be freaking out if I crashed my bike and got some nice bruisers and a bleeding cut. That doesn’t change that a broken nose isn’t a really serious injury; half the time you can’t even do anything for it. And Zimmerman was in a fight-if you’re going to claim you were “beaten to a bloody pulp” in a fight, I’d think that your injuries would need to be more serious than something that one punch can do. After all, fist hits face, head hits ground gets you a broken nose and stitches to the back of the head.
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So how many punches would someone, me, have to take before I could use deadly force?
 
maryjk said:
So how many punches would someone, me, have to take before I could use deadly force?
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As you imply here, that line of argument fails of its own dead weight. For Martin to have been in the right and Zimmerman in the wrong would require that Martin had rights that Zimmerman lacked.
 
Bubba_Switzler said:
You keep wanting to whitewash Martin’s contribution to his own death which includes beating Zimmerman to the ground. No beating Zimmerman to the ground, no death.
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You can’t say that. We don’t know the state of Zimmerman’s mind at any point during the confrontation.
 
maryjk said:
So how many punches would someone, me, have to take before I could use deadly force?
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I expressed no opinion on that, only on the sort of injuries you’d have to suffer before being beaten to a bloody pulp.
 
Bubba_Switzler said:
You keep wanting to whitewash Martin’s contribution to his own death which includes beating Zimmerman to the ground. No beating Zimmerman to the ground, no death.
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Wait a minute! I thought we were all supposed to hold off on making any such judgments-this is far from clear, especially is Martin was trying to defend his own life; he may have started beating Zimmerman to the ground because he was afraid Zimmerman was about to kill him. Considering that Zimmerman was trailing him in a car and Martin was fearful enough to call his girlfriend, who urged him to run, this is far from unlikely.
 
Bubba_Switzler said:
As you imply here, that line of argument fails of its own dead weight. For Martin to have been in the right and Zimmerman in the wrong would require that Martin had rights that Zimmerman lacked.
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No, it only requires that Zimmerman have presented a credible threat to Trayvon Martin.
 
Rich_Olszewski said:
You can’t say that. We don’t know the state of Zimmerman’s mind at any point during the confrontation.
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We don’t know a lot of things. We are all speculating and filling in gaps. Even the police and DA who chose not to arrest Zimmerman were not privey to his state of mind. If this were to come to trial the jury would have to speculate as well.

Or are you suggesting that such speculation is a right reserved to the mob?
 
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