Trayvon Martin: 'Shoot first' law under scrutiny

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fix said:
Indeed it does, yet few are accusing Martin of wrong doing. I asked a general question before in this thread. I am wondering if anyone is willing to answer it?

If we assume that GZ made an error in judgment, not saying he did, does that mean he has no right to self defense? Not legally but morally?

How many blows did GZ need to receive before people think he has a right to feel his life is in danger?

Referring to a 6’3" male has a “child” in an attempt shape the conversation seems disingenuous. One of the few “facts” we are aware of is that many are calling for the arrest of GZ. Is that because we all want a fair hearing or is it a rush to judgment based on bias?

I really wonder whether justice can be served in a case like this.
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Referring to the child as a child is a true reflection of the LAW.
 
catharina said:
That is the guideline for all neighborhood watch programs
as presented by the Nat’l Sheriffs Assn Manual on the subject.

However the Sanford group was NOT registered with the national group.
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And is there any criminal statue or charges for violation of that guideline?

Poor judgement, yes, but I don’t know if “not following the guidelines for neighborhood watch program, as presented by the Nat’l Sheriffs Assn” rises to the level of…

“crime”.
 
fix said:
Indeed it does, yet few are accusing Martin of wrong doing. I asked a general question before in this thread. I am wondering if anyone is willing to answer it?

If we assume that GZ made an error in judgment, not saying he did, does that mean he has no right to self defense? Not legally but morally?

How many blows did GZ need to receive before people think he has a right to feel his life is in danger?

Referring to a 6’3" male has a “child” in an attempt shape the conversation seems disingenuous. One of the few “facts” we are aware of is that many are calling for the arrest of GZ. Is that because we all want a fair hearing or is it a rush to judgment based on bias?

I really wonder whether justice can be served in a case like this.
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This has been my point all along.
 
catharina said:
Yep, a legal term and this is all about the Law.
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The problem, as I said, is that Zimmerman cannot be used of intentionally killing a child. Again, it is reasonable to conclude that someone 6’3" is not a child. Perhaps if it could somehow be shown that Zimmerman knew Martin beforehand, and knew his age, it might be possible to hold it against him.
 
Geist said:
wait now, you said “his head was not smashed”…now its “was not caved in”?
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I guess I live in a more violent world. For me “smash” is closer to being cave in than bash. But at least a disagreement in terms is something we can clarify and move in. So yes, getting knocked in the head is not always life-threatening.
 
pnewton said:
👍

Aha. Something concrete we may be able to test in a few weeks. If you were close enough, or our technology advanced enough as I said earlier, I would suggest we put a beer on it.
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If you’re in the Austin, TX, area a few weeks from now, let me know!
 
scipio337 said:
And is there any criminal statue or charges for violation of that guideline?

Poor judgement, yes, but I don’t know if “not following the guidelines for neighborhood watch program, as presented by the Nat’l Sheriffs Assn” rises to the level of…

“crime”.
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The notion is that good sense and good will should prevail.
The Sanford group invented its own non-rules. No surprise.
 
pnewton said:
I guess I live in a more violent world. For me “smash” is closer to being cave in than bash. But at least a disagreement in terms is something we can clarify and move in. So yes, getting knocked in the head is not always life-threatening.
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Hold on here. Getting shot is not always life threatening either? What is the standard you are using?
 
pnewton said:
I guess I live in a more violent world. For me “smash” is closer to being cave in than bash. But at least a disagreement in terms is something we can clarify and move in. So yes, getting knocked in the head is not always life-threatening.
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It’s never life benefiting.
 
pnewton said:
I guess I live in a more violent world. For me “smash” is closer to being cave in than bash. But at least a disagreement in terms is something we can clarify and move in. So yes, getting knocked in the head is not always life-threatening.
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Yes. Agree.
 
Watching the news about all of the nation wide rallies demanding justice for the killing of Trayvon Martin reminds me of the cases of some of our U.S. citizens who were tried in foreign courts. How disturbing it was to see the defendant being tried through the media and all of the protests demanding “justice” for the person whom they already determined was guilty until proven innocent. No matter how horrible this case of Trayvon may sound, I think it is best to let our system do it’s job… I am grateful that in this country a person is still innocent until proven guilty.
 
pnewton said:
I guess I live in a more violent world. For me “smash” is closer to being cave in than bash. But at least a disagreement in terms is something we can clarify and move in. So yes, getting knocked in the head is not always life-threatening.
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It’s reasonable to conclude, though, that when someone is repeatedly smashing your head into the sidewalk (which the the testimony of Zimmerman, witness “John,” and the grass stains on Zimmerman’s back and blood on the back of his head all seem to confirm), they’re trying to kill you. And that is grounds for reasonable use of force, even deadly force, at least in Texas (where I believe self-defense laws are comparable to those of Florida).

The wildcard in all this is the forensics on Martin’s body. I mentioned before that a spent round was found chambered in Zimmerman’s gun and the magazine fully loaded, meaning the slide action did not function properly. It’s possible this is attributable to poor gun design (Zimmerman’s piece was a Kel-Tec, a brand known for its cheapness) but even more possible it was due to the slide being constricted in some way. In struggles with guns, a common strategy is to grip the barrel and slide both, as it is the part of the gun that protrudes out. This would potentially keep the slide action from functioning properly and thus keep the gun from cycling a round.

If this is true, we would expect that Martin was very close to Zimmerman at the time (i.e., directly on top of him), and so we could reasonably expect Martin’s hands and chest to be coated in gun powder. I’m assuming they’re done examining Martin’s body given that he has been buried, so I guess we’re just waiting for the forensics report to be released (if that will happen at all).
 
zab said:
Watching the news about all of the nation wide rallies demanding justice for the killing of Trayvon Martin reminds me of the cases of some of our U.S. citizens who were tried in foreign courts. How disturbing it was to see the defendant being tried through the media and all of the protests demanding “justice” for the person whom they already determined was guilty until proven innocent. No matter how horrible this case of Trayvon may sound, I think it is best to let our system do it’s job…
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My point as well
I am grateful that in this country a person is still innocent until proven guilty.
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Perhaps on paper that is true, but in the court of the self righteous?
 
catharina said:
The notion is that good sense and good will should prevail.
The Sanford group invented its own non-rules. No surprise.
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But is this notion part of due process?

Can Zimmerman be convicted by not following the Nat’l Sherrif Assn’s guidelines? Can the Sanford group be culpabable in a criminal trial?
 
zab said:
Watching the news about all of the nation wide rallies demanding justice for the killing of Trayvon Martin reminds me of the cases of some of our U.S. citizens who were tried in foreign courts. How disturbing it was to see the defendant being tried through the media and all of the protests demanding “justice” for the person whom they already determined was guilty until proven innocent. No matter how horrible this case of Trayvon may sound, I think it is best to let our system do it’s job… I am grateful that in this country a person is still innocent until proven guilty.
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Because of Sanford PD’s own biased history, people have requested more investigaing.
 
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