Trayvon Martin: 'Shoot first' law under scrutiny

[maryjk]

We don’t “actually” know that and we never will.
The map of the nighborhood was posted in the previous thread.
The “neighborhood” was a complex of completely identical buildings.
Trayvon was walking in a strange neighborhood at night in the rain.

We’ll never know if he was feeling lost or uncertain or confused.
From his girlfriend we hear that he knew a strange man was following him.

That one fact could unsettle anyone.

We don’t know that he knew a strange man was following. We know that his girlfriend is claiming that, but we know nothing about was really said. We do know that as of yesterday, the girlfriend had not gone to the police to make a statement.

Wouldn’t you, if you were on the phone with someone that died, call the police right away??? Or would you wait a month, then only talk to the family’s attorney???

 

[iamrefreshed]

Point taken. But not if he were wearing a baseball cap or a pair of jeans, correct?

I guess that would depend. Are all the other children in school uniforms?

 

[seekerz]

We don’t know that he knew a strange man was following. We know that his girlfriend is claiming that, but we know nothing about was really said. We do know that as of yesterday, the girlfriend had not gone to the police to make a statement.

Wouldn’t you, if you were on the phone with someone that died, call the police right away??? Or would you wait a month, then only talk to the family’s attorney???

Zimmerman has admitted to following Trayvon. Most of us will have had the experience of sensing when we are being followed; it’s a natural defense mechanism of humans.

Do you KNOW what the young lady did or did not do? Do you know where she lives or when she found out he was dead? Do you know if her parents want her involved? Do you know if the police accessed the information on Trayvon’s phone? Why was the onus on her to go to the police and not the other way around?

 

[seekerz]

I guess that would depend. Are all the other children in school uniforms?

My point is, hoodies are very common among young people, so wearing one, by itself, would not have set him apart.

 

[iamrefreshed]

My point is, hoodies are very common among young people, so wearing one, by itself, would not have set him apart.

I don’t know if hoodies are common or not in that neighborhood. What is common amoung young people across the country is not really relevant. What matters is what would seem suspicious in that neighborhood.

 

[maryjk]

I am saying that this is not reasonable at all. If it happened this way - which I don’t think it did as no one involved in the case, not even Zimmerman says it did - , he called the dispatcher for advice, they told him to do nothing, he tried to do something anyways even though there was nothing he could reasonably do but create a conflict. It is reckless.

He called to report a suspicious person, not for advice about what to do about it. He knew what to do about it, get police back up.

The dispatcher, who has no authority whatsoever, told him that he didn’t need to follow Martin. At no time did the police tell Zimmerman not to follow. He was never on the phone with the police.

 

[catharina]

We don’t know that he knew a strange man was following. We know that his girlfriend is claiming that, but we know nothing about was really said.

**That is precisely what I said! **

We do know that as of yesterday, the girlfriend had not gone to the police to make a statement.

Wouldn’t you, if you were on the phone with someone that died, call the police right away??? Or would you wait a month, then only talk to the family’s attorney???

I’m a 66 yr-old woman so what I might do
compared to what a teen girl might do
are apples and oranges in my opinion.

 

[maryjk]

Do you KNOW what the young lady did or did not do? Do you know where she lives or when she found out he was dead? Do you know if her parents want her involved? Do you know if the police accessed the information on Trayvon’s phone? Why was the onus on her to go to the police and not the other way around?

She claims to be his girlfriend. I would hope that his girlfriend would know that her boyfriend died. Or at least become concerned that he wasn’t returning her calls.

Wouldn’t you become concerned if you heard an altercation on the phone, and then didn’t hear from that person for a month?

It may very well be that her parents don’t want her involved, but then they needed to stop her from talking to the family’s attorney.

The onus is on anyone that has information about a potential crime. Anyone with information was asked to come forward. It just seems a little too convenient that she doesn’t come forward at the time, but now a month after the fact, she can tell you what happened. But for some reason won’t go in for an interview.

 

[HailStarofSea]

He called to report a suspicious person, not for advice about what to do about it. He knew what to do about it, get police back up.

The dispatcher, who has no authority whatsoever, told him that he didn’t need to follow Martin. At no time did the police tell Zimmerman not to follow. He was never on the phone with the police.

And Zimmerman said “OK”; that seems to indicate that he understood he should not follow. Its not police back-up if the person the who the police trust to activate the services necessary to respond to the call tells you not to do anything. If you do anything after your told not to do so, that is vigilante behavior.

 

[Dawnia]

I keep hearing slightly different info about those 8 break-ins but have not seen any confirmation of those incidents.

Let’s assume that there had been 8, did that leave Zimmerman calling in reports of any stranger in his neighborhood, or just certain strangers?

I mean, there were two school shootings in my area recently, but I’m not suspicious of all schoolkids - in fact, not even those who look like the shooters…

If the shooters were on the loose would you not report it if you saw kids matching the description of the shooters?

 

[HailStarofSea]

She claims to be his girlfriend. I would hope that his girlfriend would know that her boyfriend died. Or at least become concerned that he wasn’t returning her calls.

Wouldn’t you become concerned if you heard an altercation on the phone, and then didn’t hear from that person for a month?

It may very well be that her parents don’t want her involved, but then they needed to stop her from talking to the family’s attorney.

The onus is on anyone that has information about a potential crime. Anyone with information was asked to come forward. It just seems a little too convenient that she doesn’t come forward at the time, but now a month after the fact, she can tell you what happened. But for some reason won’t go in for an interview.

The day after Trayvon’s wake, his girlfriend, who is a minor so RadarOnline.com won’t be disclosing her identity, was emotionally distraught upon learning she was the last person who talked to him.

“The day after his wake, Trayvon’s family attorney, Benjamin Crump, who had been conducting his own extensive investigation because cops had determined the shooting was in self defense, told Trayvon’s girlfriend she was the last person to talk to him,” a source close to the situation tells RadarOnline.com. "George had reviewed Trayvon’s cell phone bill and it was revealed that she was on the phone with him in the moments before Trayvan was shot.

“His girlfriend became absolutely inconsolable and had trouble breathing so her mother took her to a nearby hospital emergency room. She had never seen her daughter this upset before, ever. She had a battery of tests, including an EKG, and was there for over 12 hours. Doctors ultimately told her that she was going to be ok, but advised her mother to keep a close eye on her and try to minimize the stress around her.”

The Florida State Attorney’s Office has issued a subpoena for Trayvon’s girlfriend to appear in front of the grand jury when it’s impaneled on April 10. She has hired a lawyer to advise her and make sure that her rights are protected. Her attorney has told prosecutors that she is ready to appear and is looking forward to telling the grand jury what really happened on February 26. Special Prosecutor Angela Corey has instructed the two prosecutors she has appointed to the case to interview Trayvon’s girlfriend as well.

radaronline.com/exclusives/2012/03/trayvon-martin-girlfriend-hospitalized-following-death

I don’t see any evidence that “she won’t come in for an interview.”

 

[seekerz]

I don’t know if hoodies are common or not in that neighborhood. What is common amoung young people across the country is not really relevant. What matters is what would seem suspicious in that neighborhood.

I know of no neighborhood that I could afford access to, in which wearing a hoodie IN THE RAIN would appear suspicious. I was under the impression that hoodies were meant to protect heads.

 

[seekerz]

radaronline.com/exclusives/2012/03/trayvon-martin-girlfriend-hospitalized-following-death

I don’t see any evidence that “she won’t come in for an interview.”

Thanks for this information; it’s new to me. I think it’s important to remember that this matter involves minors.

Can you imagine any teenage girl losing their ‘puppy love’ and having to read innuendos all over the internet directed not only at him but at herself - a person in no way directly involved in the wearing of hoodies, buying of candy or pulling of guns that occurred that day?

 

[iamrefreshed]

I know of no neighborhood that I could afford access to, in which wearing a hoodie IN THE RAIN would appear suspicious. I was under the impression that hoodies were meant to protect heads.

Well, here in Seminole County Florida, many neighborhoods are filled with retirees who don’t own a single hoodie. In my parents neighborhood for example, I personally would be suspicious of anyone wearing a hoodie. Now they very well could be a guest but they would certainly cause people to do a doubletake.

 

[Havard]

I know of no neighborhood that I could afford access to, in which wearing a hoodie IN THE RAIN would appear suspicious. I was under the impression that hoodies were meant to protect heads.

Why are we even talking about the hood still? George Zimmerman never said anything about it being suspicious.

 

[seekerz]

If the shooters were on the loose would you not report it if you saw kids matching the description of the shooters?

As long as that description involved more than skin tone or common articles of clothing, yes. If only those two descriptors were given I’d be virtually surrounded by possible suspects. Which is exactly what racial profiling does on a community level.

What’s the sense in complaining of levels of criminal activity when these ‘traditions’ of policing turn every child who fits the profile into a potential criminal? Children, in my experience, have a tendency to give what is expected of them…

 

[gilliam]

I know of no neighborhood that I could afford access to, in which wearing a hoodie IN THE RAIN would appear suspicious. I was under the impression that hoodies were meant to protect heads.

Hoodies are very popular on all college campuses today. I would think they would be popular in the vast majority of gated communities (unless it is a senior citizen community)

 

[seekerz]

Hoodies are very popular on all college campuses today. I would think they would be popular in the vast majority of gated communities (unless it is a senior citizen community)

You’re right, and even the more hip, active seniors go walking in hoodies.

 

[jen_fla]

Let me be very specific because I know my posts of yesterday are pages away in another thread:

1. I don’t have any evidence that Zimmerman is or is not racist.
2. My definition of racist is simply, valuing races differently (intrinsically better or worse than the other) or having different standards for different races. No hatred need be involved. One can be polite, generous and respectful AND still be racist in my book.
3. One does not have to be racist to engage in racial profiling. There is also a class component to such profiling. In my experience, all races (including those affected) use racial profiling.
4. This case, on the basis of the 911 call, fits all the characteristics of racial profiling which I define as: expecting criminal behavior of someone based solely on their apparent race.

For those who disagree, I will submit for your consideration, this excerpt from the 911 transcript:

source

Why is that sentence significant? Zimmerman had already reported Martin’s race to the dispatcher. In my analysis, by reminding her of the race of his ‘suspect’, he was telegraphing what he felt was the significance of the ‘hand in his waistband’.

when i read your post, i thought wow, he’s right. how did i miss such an obvious racist statement, but then i went back and listened and remembered why it didn’t strike me as so the first time i listened.

when the dispatcher asked him what his race was he said he “looks black.” as in he wasn’t 100% sure. then as he stated “he’s here now” to me that says that trayvon got closer to george. then he told him about his hand in his waistband so george now was pretty close to get a good description. there was a pause and that’s when he said, “and he’s a black male” which i took as confirming what he wasn’t previously so sure about. if he had stated definitely before that he was black and then repeated that information i might think you’re on to something, but i think he was just confirming. again this came after the pause and he then gave more description (no pause) like the button on his shirt. you have to note the pause before he said “and he’s a black male.”

listen again

orlandosentinel.com/videogallery/68871920/News/George-Zimmerman-911-call-reporting-Trayvon-Martin

i think george was trying to be of help to his community. i don’t see any evidence that he is racist. when someone puts their hand in the pants while walking (unless you’re al bundy) it looks like someone is going for a gun. for all i know george attacked martin first and is totally guilty. for all i know when george went for his cell phone, trayvon thought he was going for a gun and jumped him. for all i know trayvon was trying to act tough and george lost his temper. i don’t know who made the first threat, but what i do know is that at this point i don’t see any evidence that george is a racist.

i believe if george had been told the suspects for the burglaries were asian and he saw an asian man looking suspicious (whatever that was to george) he would have reacted the same way.

again, i don’t know what happened. it very well might be that george tried to detain him in which martin would have had every right to beat the snot out of him. i just don’t know.

i am with you that this needs to be fully investigated.

 

[seekerz]

when i read your post, i thought wow, he’s right. how did i miss such an obvious racist statement, but then i went back and listened and remembered why it didn’t strike me as so the first time i listened.

when the dispatcher asked him what his race was he said he “looks black.” as in he wasn’t 100% sure. then as he stated “he’s here now” to me that says that trayvon got closer to george. then he told him about his hand in his waistband so george now was pretty close to get a good description. there was a pause and that’s when he said, “and he’s a black male” which i took as confirming what he wasn’t previously so sure about. if he had stated definitely before that he was black and then repeated that information i might think you’re on to something, but i think he was just confirming. again this came after the pause and he then gave more description (no pause) like the button on his shirt. you have to note the pause before he said “and he’s a black male.”

listen again

orlandosentinel.com/videogallery/68871920/News/George-Zimmerman-911-call-reporting-Trayvon-Martin

i think george was trying to be of help to his community. i don’t see any evidence that he is racist. when someone puts their hand in the pants while walking (unless you’re al bundy) it looks like someone is going for a gun. for all i know george attacked martin first and is totally guilty. for all i know when george went for his cell phone, trayvon thought he was going for a gun and jumped him. for all i know trayvon was trying to act tough and george lost his temper. i don’t know who made the first threat, but what i do know is that at this point i don’t see any evidence that george is a racist.

i believe if george had been told the suspects for the burglaries were asian and he saw an asian man looking suspicious (whatever that was to george) he would have reacted the same way.

again, i don’t know what happened. it very well might be that george tried to detain him in which martin would have had every right to beat the snot out of him. i just don’t know.

i am with you that this needs to be fully investigated.

You will note that my post does not accuse Zimmerman of being racist.

I have already responded to a similar comment about his references to Martin’s race. As I noted, there were other opportunities between the initial mention of race and the waistband sentence, to confirm his race: namely, the point at which he reports Martin staring at him. If I look at any photo of Martin, it is hard to see how I could tell his eyes were on me, without also noting that he was definitely black.

I do get your point though; it sounds different than it reads and there are obviously differences in perception. In my perception, this was racial profiling.