Trayvon Martin: 'Shoot first' law under scrutiny

[EasterJoy]

Again? Come on seekerz, we’ve had this discussion before…

Zimmerman was explicit about the behavior that he found strange. You may not agree that it’s strange behavior, but it’s still his words, and that is more to go on than pure conjecture.

I live in a neighborhood where people take walks, drive through and stare, and where there have occasionally been thefts. The vast majority of people who walk through or drive through and stare are not casing houses. That is suspicious, but most of the time, it is also entirely innocent. Most gawkers are not thieves, even the young gawkers.

I think we can also agree that the reason the police don’t want neighborhood watch people chasing others who have not committed a crime is that you can precipitate a conflict that didn’t have to happen…and in this case, it turned out to be a deadly conflict. After all, it may easily have been suspicious to Trayvon Martin that some dude who was bigger than him was on a cell phone checking him out. Zimmerman’s handling of this “suspicious guy” might have incited fear in Trayvon or, if Trayvon was the easily offended type, might have offended Trayvon’s sense that he was a man who had the right to be where he was and who needed to stand his ground in the face of intimidation.

We don’t have a mind transcript, so we can’t know what Trayvon actually was thinking or even whether or not he was contemplating a crime. Even so, it is a mistake to think that there is no risk in confronting “suspicious-looking” people. Strangers can feel scared, too, even criminals can feel scared, and people who are scared tend to do things to make everyone involved less safe rather than more safe.

If Trayvon got into any kind of altercation with George Zimmerman, it is entirely possible that both men acted out of fear (most 17 year olds I know like to be referred to as men, not children) instead of a rational assessment of how to prevent harm.

IMHO, the Stand Your Ground law makes physical incidents more likely to occur between those frightened for their lives. When the letter of the law can be seen as protective of “preemptive aggression” because retreat is not necessary to establish self-defense, more people are going to get in fights, get injured, or die. That’s all there is to it.

 

[gilliam]

I think we left off the discussion at: why is walking and looking around = suspicious, as opposed to = lost? No?

Probably not. No one said he looked lost, and his girlfriend didn’t indicate he was lost. He apparently knew where he was and he was looking around while he was trespassing in a gated community.

 

[Bocephus]

We shouldn’t believe this, because it is your explanation, and it directly contradicts with Zimmerman’s.

And even if this did happen, it would not be reasonable, because Zimmerman was asked by the police NOT to follow as they were on the way themselves. So if the police tells you to do something, it is reasonable to do the opposite.

I wouldn’t believe anything at this point if I were you.

It’s all assumptions, mostly based on feelings rather than the few facts available.

 

[HailStarofSea]

If I’m not mistaken, Zimmerman wasn’t positive that he was black in his first description.

I don’t think this HAS to be racial as Zimmerman has three episodes of wrongful use of violence that had nothing to do with race: a cop, his girlfriend, his previous employer.

 

[maryjk]

We shouldn’t believe this, because it is your explanation, and it directly contradicts with Zimmerman’s.

And even if this did happen, it would not be reasonable, because Zimmerman was asked by the police NOT to follow as they were on the way themselves. So if the police tells you to do something, it is reasonable to do the opposite.

Maybe you have read the numerous times we have hashed out the fact that the police did not tell him anything. He was on the phone with a dispatcher. They are not the police and you are under no obligation to follow their directions.

There is a woman that is alive today because she didn’t follow their instructions.

 

[seekerz]

No, Zimmerman was a neighborhood watch person. His job was to report suspecious activity, which is exactly what he did. If his motivation was to attack Trayvon like a vigilante he would not have called the police.

No, he did not report suspicious activity, he reported his personal suspicions - there is a difference. Besides, if he was acting as a Neighborhood Watch person, why the concealed weapon? Is that standard practice?

And why would he not have called the police, regardless of his intent? That TX guy who got off for killing those robbers of his neighbor’s house, also called 911 and then proceeded to disobey the dispatcher’s instructions.

 

[iamrefreshed]

I think we left off the discussion at: why is walking and looking around = suspicious, as opposed to = lost? No?

Very likely because of the recent 8 break-ins.

 

[HailStarofSea]

I wouldn’t believe anything at this point if I were you.

It’s all assumptions, mostly based on feelings rather than the few facts available.

You are the one making statements about beliefs based on feelings. It seems that you may have a gut jerk impulse to defend Zimmerman because you don’t like what you see as the media narrative. But what I have posted is regarding the facts and actual witness statements, phone logs, etc.

 

[mtbender]

For those who disagree, I will submit for your consideration, this excerpt from the 911 transcript:

source

Why is that sentence significant? Zimmerman had already reported Martin’s race to the dispatcher. In my analysis, by reminding her of the race of his ‘suspect’, he was telegraphing what he felt was the significance of the ‘hand in his waistband’.

I disagree with you assumptions here. In the beginning Zimmerman says “He looks black” when asked about his race by the dispatcher. He then says later that “He is black.” I take that as a point of clarification rather than to suggest some racial connection to his hands in his waistband.

 

[gilliam]

I live in a neighborhood where people take walks, drive through and stare, and where there have occasionally been thefts. The vast majority of people who walk through or drive through and stare are not casing houses. That is suspicious, but most of the time, it is also entirely innocent. Most gawkers are not thieves, even the young gawkers.

I agree

IMHO, the Stand Your Ground law makes physical incidents more likely to occur between those frightened for their lives. When the letter of the law can be seen as protective of “preemptive aggression” because retreat is not necessary to establish self-defense, more people are going to get in fights, get injured, or die. That’s all there is to it.

If in fact, Trayvon was wrestling Zimmerman and was grabbing Zimmerman’s gun, the Stand Your Ground law does not matter. Zimmerman would have shot Trayvon in self defense.

 

[seekerz]

If I’m not mistaken, Zimmerman wasn’t positive that he was black in his first description.

It certainly seems that way initially, but in the intermim Zimmerman reports Martin as staring at him, which considering Martin’s known physical appearance, should have removed any doubt; if he felt it was still unclear, he had opportunity to confirm it at that point. He only brought it up again in relation to the hand position.

 

[catharina]

What’s the difference in wild assumptions and possible “likelihoods”?

Another likelihood is that Zimmerman simply approached Martin after watching him and reasonably concluding that Martin was looking for trouble tried talk to him and got jumped when he turned his back to him. At that point Martin sealed his fate by making th confrontation physical, and he would then be guilty and the reason for his own death.

But let’s just believe one possible likelihood over another based on personal preference.

My point:
There is more than ONE likelihood.

 

[seekerz]

Probably not. No one said he looked lost,

My question is why that would not be the logical conclusion on encountering a stranger who’s reportedly walking an looking around at houses?

 

[seekerz]

Very likely because of the recent 8 break-ins.

I keep hearing slightly different info about those 8 break-ins but have not seen any confirmation of those incidents.

Let’s assume that there had been 8, did that leave Zimmerman calling in reports of any stranger in his neighborhood, or just certain strangers?

I mean, there were two school shootings in my area recently, but I’m not suspicious of all schoolkids - in fact, not even those who look like the shooters…

 

[Havard]

I think we left off the discussion at: why is walking and looking around = suspicious, as opposed to = lost? No?

Right.

But that brings us into bigger speculation territory, which I am loathe to go into…

I’ll just say this. Lost people typically look for specific markers. House numbers, street signs, etc. Well, we know actually know that Trayvon wasn’t lost, so if he was indeed “walking around looking about” as Zimmerman said, it is reasonable to speculate that his manner of looking about was in a different manner than looking for house numbers or street names.

He may have been just curious, there’s certainly no crime in looking at things. But we do know that Zimmerman was actively looking for suspicious things, sometimes the mind sees what it wants to.

 

[gilliam]

No, he did not report suspicious activity, he reported his personal suspicions - there is a difference. Besides, if he was acting as a Neighborhood Watch person, why the concealed weapon? Is that standard practice?

Look at the transcript . He reported both that he was suspecious and he gave examples of suspecious activity "We’ve had some break-ins in my neighborhood and there’s a real suspicious guy. It’s Retreat View Circle. The best address I can give you is 111 Retreat View Circle. This guy looks like he’s up to no good or he’s on drugs or something. It’s raining and he’s just walking around looking about. "

911 dispatcher:
OK, is he White, Black, or Hispanic?
Zimmerman:
He looks black.
911 dispatcher:
Did you see what he was wearing?
Zimmerman:
Yeah, a dark hoodie like a gray hoodie. He wore jeans or sweat pants and white tennis shoes. He’s here now … he’s just staring. [00:42]
911 dispatcher:
He’s just walking around the area, the houses? OK.
Zimmerman:
Now he’s staring at me. [00:48]
911 dispatcher:
OK, you said that’s 1111 Retreat View or 111?
Zimmerman:
That’s the clubhouse.
911 dispatcher:
He’s near the clubhouse now?
Zimmerman:
Yeah, now he’s coming toward me. He’s got his hands in his waist band.
And he’s a black male.[1:03]
911 dispatcher:
How old would you say he is?
Zimmerman:
He’s got something on his shirt. About like his late teens.
911 dispatcher:
Late teens?
Zimmerman:
Uh, huh.
Something’s wrong with him. Yep, he’s coming to check me out.
He’s got something in his hands. I don’t know what his deal is. [01:20]

If you have a CC permit, you can carry.

And why would he not have called the police, regardless of his intent? That TX guy who got off for killing those robbers of his neighbor’s house, also called 911 and then proceeded to disobey the dispatcher’s instructions.

Because he would not want the police there too early if he was going to set up a scene to look like self defense if it was not. The KKK for example never called the cops (unless one of them was a KKK member)

 

[HailStarofSea]

Maybe you have read the numerous times we have hashed out the fact that the police did not tell him anything. He was on the phone with a dispatcher. They are not the police and you are under no obligation to follow their directions.

There is a woman that is alive today because she didn’t follow their instructions.

Zimmerman’s life was not in danger. If Zimmerman approached Martin after watching him as the previous poster suggested, that puts Zimmerman in the wrong. What was Zimmerman going to do after approaching him? He can’t arrest him.

 

[seekerz]

I agree

If in fact, Trayvon was wrestling Zimmerman and was grabbing Zimmerman’s gun, the Stand Your Ground law does not matter. Zimmerman would have shot Trayvon in self defense.

Why would Stand Your Ground not apply? Can a 17 yr old not feel threatened by an armed 28yr old man who’s been following him? I would imagine if he grabbed for the gun it was because he saw it first?

 

[mtbender]

My question is why that would not be the logical conclusion on encountering a stranger who’s reportedly walking an looking around at houses?

For the same reason why you make logical conclusion that Zimmerman was applying a negative connotation to race rather than clarifying Martins race for the dispatcher after being asked…

 

[gilliam]

Why would Stand Your Ground not apply? Can a 17 yr old not feel threatened by an armed 28yr old man who’s been following him? I would imagine if he grabbed for the gun it was because he saw it first?

Because they were fighting. And if they were fighting over a gun, as Zimmerman’s brother said, it now becomes a matter of defending your life, not your property.