Trayvon Martin: 'Shoot first' law under scrutiny

[Robert_Bay]

Continuation of this thread:
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=659279

 

[seekerz]

Thanks Robert.

 

[seekerz]

I meant to post this yesterday, in response to this post on the previous thread.

Why do you assume that Zimmerman bled “onto a surface that his head was being bashed into”? From what I’ve heard so far, it’s unclear how many times his head hit the pavement. For all we know, it could’ve been only once or twice. Secondly, he claims he was struggling against TM and had scooted on his back, onto the grass. The altercation was allegedly brief, again, according to what the public has heard so far. There’s no reason to assume that he had to have bled onto the pavement. Add rain and, well, I have to wonder why you’d insist blood would be visible? Better yet, why deny the cut/scrape/injury that is later shown on the arrest tape? Is a theory now taking root that the police somehow doctored GZ’s head to give an appearance of an injury on tape, all in an effort to cover up a racist hate crime?

I know nothing of racist hate crimes, but your theory of the crime seems to evolve beyond what I have heard on TV, so I appreciate chatting with you.

As far as I was led to understand, Zimmerman was in fear of his life because Martin was smashing his head onto the pavement repeatedly.

George Zimmerman told police Martin decked him with a single punch, then repeatedly slammed his head into the sidewalk.

Read more: foxnews.com/us/2012/03/26/trayvon-martins-killer-claims-teen-punched-him-slammed-his-head-into-ground/#ixzz1qZMhA3RH

Source

He was also reported, on all the networks to have had a bleeding “gash” on the back of his head:

CRAIG SONNER, GEORGE ZIMMERMAN’S ATTORNEY: George Zimmerman suffered a broken nose, an injury, a gash to the back of his head. There were grass stains on the back of his shirt. Again, he claims that Trayvon Martin struck him and he went down and he was acting in self-defense.

Source

So for you to now refer to the effects of that beating that made a 28 yr old fear for his life, as a “cut/scrape/injury” resulting from one or two hits on the pavement, is very curious.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

The problem with the Stand Your Ground laws, is that it’s too easy for a killer to manipulate the situation in order to kill, but use self-defense as his reason.

Ex-wives, brother-in-laws, and you name it, can manipulate a situation making it look like self-defense.

I think the Trayvon Martin killing is such a case where Zimmerman manipulated the situation into a justified killing under the Stand Your Ground Law.

Jim

 

[Bocephus]

I meant to post this yesterday, in response to this post on the previous thread.

I know nothing of racist hate crimes, but your theory of the crime seems to evolve beyond what I have heard on TV, so I appreciate chatting with you.

As far as I was led to understand, Zimmerman was in fear of his life because Martin was smashing his head onto the pavement repeatedly.

Source

He was also reported, on all the networks to have had a bleeding “gash” on the back of his head:

Source

So for you to now refer to the effects of that beating that made a 28 yr old fear for his life, as a “cut/scrape/injury” resulting from one or two hits on the pavement, is very curious.

I’ve had some pretty severe blows to the head. It only takes one good one to rock your world and screw up your thinking, especially in that kind of situation. Getting beat on, a fear of losing consciousness is I’m the same boat as a fear for your life.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

I meant to post this yesterday, in response to this post on the previous thread.

I know nothing of racist hate crimes, but your theory of the crime seems to evolve beyond what I have heard on TV, so I appreciate chatting with you.

As far as I was led to understand, Zimmerman was in fear of his life because Martin was smashing his head onto the pavement repeatedly.

Source

He was also reported, on all the networks to have had a bleeding “gash” on the back of his head:

Source

So for you to now refer to the effects of that beating that made a 28 yr old fear for his life, as a “cut/scrape/injury” resulting from one or two hits on the pavement, is very curious.

Of course Zimmerman following Trayvon, as he was told not to do by the police dispatcher, made Trayvon the one who would’ve been justified to stand his ground, as he probably felt threatend by Zimmerman, especially if Zimmerman approached Trayvon in a hostile manor.

Jim

 

[donsnow]

Good morning, all,

I’ve been giving this some more thought.

As far as cultural context, for decades now “Gun Nazis” (efforts to abridge, infringe or smother our Second Amendment rights) have been trying to disarm Americans. So, in view of the media, national and international, hype on this shooting, I can’t help but think a lot of the furor is being stirred up by Gun Nazis taking advantage of Trayvon’s death. That’s my two cents’ worth.

Also, for my two bits’ worth, the only law enforcement with jurisprudence in this case is the Stanford PD. That the FBI and DOJ have waded in makes it look like to me that the Gun Nazis have started a witch hunt against George Zimmerman.

I think that those who dismiss different cultural contexts of this case are over simplifying the issue.

God loves all of you, lurkers, too,
Don

 

[L_piperatus]

myfoxorlando.com/dpp/news/trayvon_martin/032812-exclusive-robert-zimmerman-interview

EXCLUSIVE: Robert Zimmerman interview
Updated: Thursday, 29 Mar 2012, 9:24 AM EDT
Published : Wednesday, 28 Mar 2012, 11:20 PM EDT
By Valerie Boey
FOX 35 News

LAKE MARY, Fla. (WOFL FOX 35) - For the first time since that fateful night on February 26, the father of a neighborhood watch volunteer who shot and killed an unarmed teenager sat down for a television interview.

Here’s a more detailed transcript of what GZ’s dad says:

George Zimmerman’s father claims Trayvon Martin beat his son, threatened his life
Published March 29, 2012
| FoxNews.com

LAKE MARY, Fla. – In the moments before Florida neighborhood watch volunteer George Zimmerman fatally shot 17-year-old unarmed black teenager Trayvon Martin, the teen slammed Zimmerman’s head into the ground and threatened his life, Zimmerman’s father claims.
In an exclusive interview with myFOXorlando, Robert Zimmerman detailed his son’s account of the night, claiming Martin beat his son for over a minute and told him something along the lines of, “You’re going to die tonight.”

“(George Zimmerman) went to the next street, realized where he was and was walking to his vehicle,” Robert Zimmerman said. "It’s my understanding, at that point, Trayvon Martin walked up to him and asked him, ‘Do you have a [expletive] problem?’ "
Robert Zimmerman says his son told Martin he did not have a problem, and reached for his cellphone.
Then, Robert Zimmerman claims, Martin punched George Zimmerman in the face, breaking his nose and knocking him to the ground.
“Trayvon Martin got on top of him, and just started beating him,” Robert Zimmerman claims. “In his face, on his nose, hitting his face on the concrete.”
“After nearly a minute of being beaten, George was trying to get his head off the concrete, trying to move with Trayvon on him, in the grass. In doing so, his firearm was shown. Trayvon Martin said something to the effect of, ‘You’re going to die now,’ or ‘You’re going to die tonight’ or something to that effect,” Robert Zimmerman said.
Robert Zimmerman said Martin continued to beat his son, and George Zimmerman at some point pulled out his gun and “did what he did.”

Read more: foxnews.com/us/2012/03/29/george-zimmermans-father-claims-trayvon-martin-beat-his-son-threatened-his-life/#ixzz1qbgv6Awc

 

[seekerz]

I’ve had some pretty severe blows to the head. It only takes one good one to rock your world and screw up your thinking, especially in that kind of situation. Getting beat on, a fear of losing consciousness is I’m the same boat as a fear for your life.

That was not really the point of my post. The poster I was responding to seems to have information different to that available on Fox News, that’s all.

I still don’t understand how significant head bashing didn’t merit an immediate CT scan, but then, there are lots of things I don’t understand about this case.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

myfoxorlando.com/dpp/news/trayvon_martin/032812-exclusive-robert-zimmerman-interview

EXCLUSIVE: Robert Zimmerman interview
Updated: Thursday, 29 Mar 2012, 9:24 AM EDT
Published : Wednesday, 28 Mar 2012, 11:20 PM EDT
By Valerie Boey
FOX 35 News

LAKE MARY, Fla. (WOFL FOX 35) - For the first time since that fateful night on February 26, the father of a neighborhood watch volunteer who shot and killed an unarmed teenager sat down for a television interview.

Here’s a more detailed transcript of what GZ’s dad says:

George Zimmerman’s father claims Trayvon Martin beat his son, threatened his life
Published March 29, 2012
| FoxNews.com

LAKE MARY, Fla. – In the moments before Florida neighborhood watch volunteer George Zimmerman fatally shot 17-year-old unarmed black teenager Trayvon Martin, the teen slammed Zimmerman’s head into the ground and threatened his life, Zimmerman’s father claims.
In an exclusive interview with myFOXorlando, Robert Zimmerman detailed his son’s account of the night, claiming Martin beat his son for over a minute and told him something along the lines of, “You’re going to die tonight.”

“(George Zimmerman) went to the next street, realized where he was and was walking to his vehicle,” Robert Zimmerman said. "It’s my understanding, at that point, Trayvon Martin walked up to him and asked him, ‘Do you have a [expletive] problem?’ "
Robert Zimmerman says his son told Martin he did not have a problem, and reached for his cellphone.
Then, Robert Zimmerman claims, Martin punched George Zimmerman in the face, breaking his nose and knocking him to the ground.
“Trayvon Martin got on top of him, and just started beating him,” Robert Zimmerman claims. “In his face, on his nose, hitting his face on the concrete.”
“After nearly a minute of being beaten, George was trying to get his head off the concrete, trying to move with Trayvon on him, in the grass. In doing so, his firearm was shown. Trayvon Martin said something to the effect of, ‘You’re going to die now,’ or ‘You’re going to die tonight’ or something to that effect,” Robert Zimmerman said.
Robert Zimmerman said Martin continued to beat his son, and George Zimmerman at some point pulled out his gun and “did what he did.”

Read more: foxnews.com/us/2012/03/29/george-zimmermans-father-claims-trayvon-martin-beat-his-son-threatened-his-life/#ixzz1qbgv6Awc

Unfortunately, we’ll never hear Martin’s side of the story.

Jim

 

[seekerz]

Of course Zimmerman following Trayvon, as he was told not to do by the police dispatcher, made Trayvon the one who would’ve been justified to stand his ground, as he probably felt threatend by Zimmerman, especially if Zimmerman approached Trayvon in a hostile manor.

Jim

Exactly. And now the concerted effort to make Trayvon somehow guilty of something that justified his death, seems to be a continuation of what Zimmerman started that night.

 

[gnjsdad]

Of course Zimmerman following Trayvon, as he was told not to do by the police dispatcher, made Trayvon the one who would’ve been justified to stand his ground, as he probably felt threatend by Zimmerman, especially if Zimmerman approached Trayvon in a hostile manor.

Jim

 

[seekerz]

Good morning, all,

I’ve been giving this some more thought.

As far as cultural context, for decades now “Gun Nazis” (efforts to abridge, infringe or smother our Second Amendment rights) have been trying to disarm Americans. So, in view of the media, national and international, hype on this shooting, I can’t help but think a lot of the furor is being stirred up by Gun Nazis taking advantage of Trayvon’s death. That’s my two cents’ worth.

Also, for my two bits’ worth, the only law enforcement with jurisprudence in this case is the Stanford PD. That the FBI and DOJ have waded in makes it look like to me that the Gun Nazis have started a witch hunt against George Zimmerman.

I think that those who dismiss different cultural contexts of this case are over simplifying the issue.

God loves all of you, lurkers, too,
Don

A “witch hunt” against *** the one living man who walked out of this encounter***?

 

[scipio337]

A “witch hunt” against *** the one living man who walked out of this encounter***?

Yes.

He’s already been convicted as guilty in the court of the public opine. Regardless of a criminal trial, (if there is one), this man’s life is over.

 

[Mauzer]

A “witch hunt” against *** the one living man who walked out of this encounter***?

He’s talking about Liberal Progressive’s who are against the second amendment, not a “witch hunt” for George Zimmerman. I believe his opinion was that the story is being blown out of proportion to highlight how dangerous guns are, giving “amunition” (pun intended) to the left to revoke our constitutional right to bear arms.

I think it is peculiar that the media is highlighting this case, when just weeks before a young man was SET ON FIRE in Arkansas and his attackers told him “This is what you deserve. You get what you deserve, white boy.’” The fact that the media didn’t highlight that case but chose to give a massive amount of attention to this case is odd at best. I’m not implying anything but these sort of things happen all the time and the worldwide media never chooses to make a big deal out of it.

Source: articles.nydailynews.com/2012-03-04/news/31122324_1_white-boy-fire-tv-station

 

[gilliam]

It is kind of confusing, but from what I can tell, Zimmerman did turn and return to his car after the dispatcher told him that he didn’t have to follow Trayvon

Bottom line is we really don’t know all the facts in this case yet, and people are really jumping to all kinds of conclusions on both sides.

 

[Bocephus]

Exactly. And now the concerted effort to make Trayvon somehow guilty of something that justified his death, seems to be a continuation of what Zimmerman started that night.

If the story we know so far is true, Martin is guilty of making it physical. Which is not an excusable reaction to Zimmermans approach if it was not physical in nature. We don’t know what Martins behavior was that was so suspicious to Zimmerman. There is a lot we don’t know and to lay all the blame on Zimmerman simply because he approached Martin is a bit rediculous.

In my area, I very well could approach a suspicious person just to see how they react.

 

[stevegravy]

Bottom line is we really don’t know all the facts in this case yet, and people are really jumping to all kinds of conclusions on both sides.

Some anonymous individual, wiser than me, once said, “Opinions are like a** holes everyone has one and they all stink.” We need to stop playing internet Sherlock Holmes and sit back and let the gumbmint atorities do their job. They may not be the brightest, the rightest, or the best of the best but it is their job and not much more you can do about it. This is getting to be so much like the OJ fiasco. It makes me very nervous about the overall capacity of people to come to grips with reality.

My two cents worth is to remember there is no justice on earth, one day the shooter and the victim will both lay in the ground and Jesus will have judged the souls of each according to God’s law and his infinite mercy and justice. WE need to remember that salient fact if this discussion over events of that tragic night continues.

One further observation and I am through. The publicity and the easy way opinions formed I hope I am never put in the position of believing I have to act to protect anything or anybody. This has to be worse than running for president. I understand state AGs and federal prosecutors have an incredibly high success rate with their cases. Also, they are notorious for never saying sorry for the inconvenience and expense the defendants suffer in the few cases they lose. It sucks when you hit their radar screen.

In 2001, American state prosecutors win 85.21 percent of their
felony cases and 89.81 percent of their misdemeanors, while American federal prosecutors
win 90 percent of their cases in 2003.

Read the whole thing here:

http://lsr.nellco.org/cgi/viewconte...ccessful prosecutions by federal prosecutors"

I am just waiting for the attorney to say, “If the hoddie fits you got to convict.”

 

[seekerz]

Yes.

He’s already been convicted as guilty in the court of the public opine. Regardless of a criminal trial, (if there is one), this man’s life is over.

If he had been taken before the courts, then none of this would have happened, so it seems like the system is what victimized him.

To be honest, initially, it was easier for me to think compassionately of the impact of this on him and his wife and kids. But since Trayvon’s Mom’s plaintive: “They killed my son and now they’re trying to kill his reputation” AND the widespread evidence of that online and on TV, I really cannot find tears to shed on the living. Hope that doesn’t make me a bad person.

 

[seekerz]

If the story we know so far is true, Martin is guilty of making it physical. Which is not an excusable reaction to Zimmermans approach if it was not physical in nature. We don’t know what Martins behavior was that was so suspicious to Zimmerman. There is a lot we don’t know and to lay all the blame on Zimmerman simply because he approached Martin is a bit rediculous.

In my area, I very well could approach a suspicious person just to see how they react.

That would be very foolhardy of you. There is no law against looking ‘suspicious’ - a very subjective criteria in any case.

Zimmerman gave all the details he seemed to find pertinent, on the 911 call, therefore, we are justified in concluding that there was no overt behavior to justify the suspicion in Zimmerman’s head.