Trayvon Martin: 'Shoot first' law under scrutiny

[scipio337]

If he had been taken before the courts, then none of this would have happened, so it seems like the system is what victimized him.

To be honest, initially, it was easier for me to think compassionately of the impact of this on him and his wife and kids. But since Trayvon’s Mom’s plaintive: “They killed my son and now they’re trying to kill his reputation” AND the widespread evidence of that online and on TV, I really cannot find tears to shed on the living. Hope that doesn’t make me a bad person.

With all due respect, you weren’t on the investigation, and you didn’t have access to the police reports.

Apparently, the police wanted to charge Zimmerman with a misdemeanor, but the prosecutor didn’t feel they had a strong enough case to convict.

What gives you better insight than them? Because you empathize with the parents?

And if you don’t think that Martin’s past activities won’t play a factor if this goes to trial (where Zimmerman will undeniably charge it was self-defense), then I’m not sure you want to see an impartial outcome.

I’m shedding tears for the dead and the living, and both of their families.

 

[L_piperatus]

Unfortunately, we’ll never hear Martin’s side of the story.

Jim

I hope Martin’s girlfriend will tell to the police what she heard through the cellphone. But, sadly, Martin is dead and we will never hear his side of the story in this earthly life (I guess on the day of the last judgment all things will be revealed and we will see the truth as clearly as God sees it now). However, according to the version presented by GZ’s father, Martin said something to the effect of “you are going to die tonight”. According to some other info given by GZ’s side, Martin was reaching for Zimmerman’s gun when Z shot him. If Z’s claims are true, his life was in imminent danger at that point.

 

[seekerz]

If the story we know so far is true, Martin is guilty of making it physical. Which is not an excusable reaction to Zimmermans approach if it was not physical in nature. We don’t know what Martins behavior was that was so suspicious to Zimmerman. There is a lot we don’t know and to lay all the blame on Zimmerman simply because he approached Martin is a bit rediculous.

In my area, I very well could approach a suspicious person just to see how they react.

If the story we’ve heard so far is true - all of it, including witnesses - a young man who had been chatting to his girlfriend while trying to get away from a strange man pursuing him, suddenly turns around to confront said stranger and threatens to make this the man’s last day on earth.

That about it?

 

[Bocephus]

That would be very foolhardy of you. There is no law against looking ‘suspicious’ - a very subjective criteria in any case.

Zimmerman gave all the details he seemed to find pertinent, on the 911 call, therefore, we are justified in concluding that there was no overt behavior to justify the suspicion in Zimmerman’s head.

Not really, the first line of defense of my he is me. Cops aren’t going to be there to protect my family, it takes them a minimum of 15 minutes just to show up. Nobody said there is a law against looking suspicious, nor is their a law against walking up to someone and striking up a conversation to find out more about them.

No overt behavior? I listened to the 911 call, I think he said he was up to no good. Which tells me he may not have just been strolling down the street as innocent as everyone wished to believe.

 

[seekerz]

I hope Martin’s girlfriend will tell to the police what she heard through the cellphone. But, sadly, Martin is dead and we will never hear his side of the story in this earthly life (I guess on the day of the last judgment all things will be revealed and we will see the truth as clearly as God sees it now). However, according to the version presented by GZ’s father, Martin said something to the effect of “you are going to die tonight”. According to some other info given by GZ’s side, Martin was reaching for Zimmerman’s gun when Z shot him. If Z’s claims are true, his life was in imminent danger at that point.

Those are big if’s…On the other hand, there is information in calls and in a video, that we are far less ‘iffy’. Why wouldn’t we give more weight to what can be confirmed objectively?

 

[Bocephus]

If the story we’ve heard so far is true - all of it, including witnesses - a young man who had been chatting to his girlfriend while trying to get away from a strange man pursuing him, suddenly turns around to confront said stranger and threatens to make this the man’s last day on earth.

That about it?

No, I don’t believe so. But I wasn’t there, so I don’t know.

 

[SamH]

The problem with the Stand Your Ground laws, is that it’s too easy for a killer to manipulate the situation in order to kill, but use self-defense as his reason.

Ex-wives, brother-in-laws, and you name it, can manipulate a situation making it look like self-defense.

I think the Trayvon Martin killing is such a case where Zimmerman manipulated the situation into a justified killing under the Stand Your Ground Law.

Jim

Any proof of this happening? The law has been in effect 7 years.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

Well two facts we do know.

Trayvon Martin never had a run in with the law.

Zimmerman on the other hand has been arrested for assault of a police officer.

Now, those two points don’t prove anything in this case, but it does show one of the men, ZImmerman, knows about the law, and has experience in getting off.

Also, it seems to me that Zimmerman waited before coming public with his story. This is to be sure his story is in line with the Stand Your Ground Law.

Again, we’ll never know Trayvon’s side of the story.

Jim

 

[catharina]

The problem with the Stand Your Ground laws, is that it’s too easy for a killer to manipulate the situation in order to kill, but use self-defense as his reason.

AGREE.

Ex-wives, brother-in-laws, and you name it, can manipulate a situation making it look like self-defense.

I think the Trayvon Martin killing is such a case where Zimmerman manipulated the situation into a justified killing under the Stand Your Ground Law.

Jim

 

[seekerz]

With all due respect, you weren’t on the investigation, and you didn’t have access to the police reports.

Apparently, the police wanted to charge Zimmerman with a misdemeanor, but the prosecutor didn’t feel they had a strong enough case to convict.

What gives you better insight than them? Because you empathize with the parents?

And if you don’t think that Martin’s past activities won’t play a factor if this goes to trial (where Zimmerman will undeniably charge it was self-defense), then I’m not sure you want to see an impartial outcome.

I’m shedding tears for the dead and the living, and both of their families.

I never claimed to have been there.

Did you witness what transpired between police and the prosecutor?

What I do know as certifiable facts, are:

1. Not enough information has been given to the parents or the public, on why charges were not filed. (Last I checked this was not a police state where investigatory finding simply disappear into the belly of the beast).
2. If I were those parents, no one anywhere could ever shut me up until all questions were answered to my satisfaction.

 

[SamH]

Well two facts we do know.

Trayvon Martin never had a run in with the law.

Source for this claim?

 

[L_piperatus]

Police investigated Trayvon Martin over jewelry
Updated: Tuesday, 27 Mar 2012, 10:55 PM EDT
Published : Tuesday, 27 Mar 2012, 1:22 PM EDT

SANFORD, Fla. (AP) - A Florida police department says women’s jewelry found in Trayvon Martin’s school backpack last year didn’t match any that had been reported stolen.

The Miami Herald obtained a Miami-Dade Schools Police Department report that showed the slain teenager was suspended in October for writing obscene graffiti on a door at his high school.

The report says that during a search of his backpack, security officers found jewelry and a screwdriver that they felt could be a burglary tool. Martin told them a friend had given him the jewelry, but wouldn’t say who.

Miami-Dade Police confirmed Tuesday that the jewelry didn’t match any that had been reported stolen.

Read more: myfoxorlando.com/dpp/news/local/032712-trayvon-martins-parents-in-washington-for-racial-profiling-briefing#ixzz1qbsZtpS7

 

[catharina]

He’s talking about Liberal Progressive’s who are against the second amendment, not a “witch hunt” for George Zimmerman. I believe his opinion was that the story is being blown out of proportion to highlight how dangerous guns are, giving “amunition” (pun intended) to the left to revoke our constitutional right to bear arms.

I think it is peculiar that the media is highlighting this case, when just weeks before a young man was SET ON FIRE in Arkansas and his attackers told him “This is what you deserve. You get what you deserve, white boy.’” The fact that the media didn’t highlight that case but chose to give a massive amount of attention to this case is odd at best. I’m not implying anything but these sort of things happen all the time and the worldwide media never chooses to make a big deal out of it.

Source: articles.nydailynews.com/2012-03-04/news/31122324_1_white-boy-fire-tv-station

Difference?
First victim is alive.
Second victim is dead.

Enormous difference.

 

[didymus]

I saw an article in Slate that pointed out that in most cases the police & DA control the narrative; they get their man, the media repeat verbatim law enforcement’s version of the facts, the perp and the victim. Because the police did so little investigating in this case (move along, nothing to see here) the family go its version out first and ever since it’s the police who have had to resort to leaking witness statements.

From the first it sounds like the cops pretty much just took Zimmerman’s word that he acted in self-defense. “This guy jumped you? Okay . . . bruises . . . scratches . . . grass stains, yeah, that’s consistent. You can go.”

I’d like to know how much crime-scene investigation was done, was an autopsy performed and why was there no grand jury?
Self-defense is an affirmative defense. All homicides should be investigated as crimes even when self-defense is claimed and the results sent to a grand jury. If the shooter was justified they can no-bill it.

 

[maryjk]

If he had been taken before the courts, then none of this would have happened, so it seems like the system is what victimized him.

To be honest, initially, it was easier for me to think compassionately of the impact of this on him and his wife and kids. **But since Trayvon’s Mom’s plaintive: “They killed my son and now they’re trying to kill his reputation” **AND the widespread evidence of that online and on TV, I really cannot find tears to shed on the living. Hope that doesn’t make me a bad person.

The problem is, Martin has a history of trouble. Maybe not big trouble, but trouble nonetheless. He had been suspended from school a number of times and kicked out of one school.

His family originally acted like any family would. They put out a picture of their son that showed him how they want to remember him. As a fresh faced boy, They portrayed him so well, that one of the witnesses is claiming that she heard a little boy calling out. (no wonder the police think she is making up what she heard)

In today’s world, you can’t do that. Of course other people are going to have pictures of the 17 year old. Others are going to know that he is 6 foot tall. Fellow students will know he was kicked out of school or that he had been suspended or that he punched a bus driver (or at least threatened to). Friends are going to know his twitter address, and they are going to be more than willing to give it out.

They could have told the race mongers to go home. That there wasn’t a place for them. But instead they embraced them. What did they think was going to happen when they allowed Al Sharpton and Jesse Jackson to be part of this?

The Zimmerman family didn’t release Martin’s history. They didn’t release his Twitter account. They didn’t have pictures of him. The release of all of this information can’t be blamed on the Zimmerman’s.

 

[seekerz]

Not really, the first line of defense of my he is me. Cops aren’t going to be there to protect my family, it takes them a minimum of 15 minutes just to show up. Nobody said there is a law against looking suspicious, nor is their a law against walking up to someone and striking up a conversation to find out more about them.

No overt behavior? I listened to the 911 call, I think he said he was up to no good. Which tells me he may not have just been strolling down the street as innocent as everyone wished to believe.

“He was up to no good”…unless George Zimmerman has mind-reading abilities, that would require a description of what the individual was doing, yet he gave none. Sanford police must be very obliging, I can’t imaging calling my local police about someone “up to no good” in my neighborhood without giving at least one detail of what he/she was doing.

If you listen to the call well, other than the physical description and a comment about looking at houses, Zimmerman gives nothing but conjectures about Trayvon. Not a single, solitary description of something wrong (or even suspicious) that he was doing.

Let those who like stories, listen to them; I will listen to the actual calls.

 

[L_piperatus]

March 30, 2012 7:34 AM
Report: Zimmerman described as "Jekyll and Hyde"
By Mark Strassmann

(CBS News) - An anonymous former co-worker of George Zimmerman, the man who shot and killed unarmed teen Trayvon Martin five weeks ago, told a newspaper that Zimmerman “loved being in charge … loved the power” and could become violent.

The New York Daily News reported Friday that Zimmerman was fired in 2005 from his job as a party security guard for being too aggressive, quoting a former co-worker as saying that “usually he was just a cool guy. … But it was like Jekyll and Hyde. When the dude snapped, he snapped.”

Read more at cbsnews.com/8301-505263_162-57406927/report-zimmerman-described-as-jekyll-and-hyde/

 

[seekerz]

Police investigated Trayvon Martin over jewelry
Updated: Tuesday, 27 Mar 2012, 10:55 PM EDT
Published : Tuesday, 27 Mar 2012, 1:22 PM EDT

SANFORD, Fla. (AP) - A Florida police department says women’s jewelry found in Trayvon Martin’s school backpack last year didn’t match any that had been reported stolen.

The Miami Herald obtained a Miami-Dade Schools Police Department report that showed the slain teenager was suspended in October for writing obscene graffiti on a door at his high school.

The report says that during a search of his backpack, security officers found jewelry and a screwdriver that they felt could be a burglary tool. Martin told them a friend had given him the jewelry, but wouldn’t say who.

Miami-Dade Police confirmed Tuesday that the jewelry didn’t match any that had been reported stolen.

Read more: myfoxorlando.com/dpp/news/local/032712-trayvon-martins-parents-in-washington-for-racial-profiling-briefing#ixzz1qbsZtpS7

He scribbled profanity - that about it? The jewelry proves nothing: it was not stolen as far as we know.

This would seem relevant if Zimmerman had complained of life-threatening verbal abuse as the reason for him pulling the trigger.

 

[Mauzer]

Well two facts we do know.

Trayvon Martin never had a run in with the law.

Zimmerman on the other hand has been arrested for assault of a police officer.

Now, those two points don’t prove anything in this case, but it does show one of the men, ZImmerman, knows about the law, and has experience in getting off.

Also, it seems to me that Zimmerman waited before coming public with his story. This is to be sure his story is in line with the Stand Your Ground Law.

Again, we’ll never know Trayvon’s side of the story.

Jim

So your of the opinion that a sin isn’t a sin unless your caught?

Let me explain, if John Doe is caught doing something wrong it teaches him that his actions were wrong and there is a possibility that he will be made to answer for his wrongdoing (we know we will all answer to the Lord, but I’m discussing Man’s law here) so he reforms his ways, does his penance, and becomes better for it.

Jack Doe does something wrong but is never caught, he has still committed a crime he just hasn’t been caught. So he commits another crime, possibly more egregious this time and still isn’t caught. All he has learned is how to get away with things better than John Doe.

So your argument has no pertinence. Lets save the judging for the Lord and those in the courts

 

[seekerz]

The problem is, Martin has a history of trouble. Maybe not big trouble, but trouble nonetheless. He had been suspended from school a number of times and kicked out of one school.

His family originally acted like any family would. They put out a picture of their son that showed him how they want to remember him. As a fresh faced boy, They portrayed him so well, that one of the witnesses is claiming that she heard a little boy calling out. (no wonder the police think she is making up what she heard)

In today’s world, you can’t do that. Of course other people are going to have pictures of the 17 year old. Others are going to know that he is 6 foot tall. Fellow students will know he was kicked out of school or that he had been suspended or that he punched a bus driver (or at least threatened to). Friends are going to know his twitter address, and they are going to be more than willing to give it out.

They could have told the race mongers to go home. That there wasn’t a place for them. But instead they embraced them. What did they think was going to happen when they allowed Al Sharpton and Jesse Jackson to be part of this?

The Zimmerman family didn’t release Martin’s history. They didn’t release his Twitter account. They didn’t have pictures of him. The release of all of this information can’t be blamed on the Zimmerman’s.

How do you know who released what? How do you know which Twitter account (if any) belongs to Martin? The point is, you don’t know. Whatever photos the Martin family put out there, at least they were all of the correct person which is more than I can say for some hate-baiters out there.

This ‘mongering’ thing really works both ways. Many of us reject those who don’t reinforce our ideologies and preferences and constantly make excuses for those who do.

The Martin family was offered help and publicity and they took it. Who am I, or anyone else, to censor their choice of allies? Is someone public seal of approval necessary before a mother can seek justice for her son?

However, I don’t need to look at unknown people to judge the Zimmerman family reaction. I only have to listen to what they and their supporters SAY when they are being interviewed, to draw logical conclusions of who most deserves my compassion.