Trayvon Martin: 'Shoot first' law under scrutiny

[HailStarofSea]

I don’t either. Therefore you can only assume, why make any personal conclusions based on ignorance? I would think it might be wiser, if one must assume, to draw a conclusion that Martin wasn’t innocently walking down the street minding his own business.

So we should ignore his girlfriend, who phone logs prove was on the phone with him, and believe Zimmerman, whose accounts have been contradicted by several others?

 

[seekerz]

I don’t know.

This article seems to indicate that the investigation was pretty much wrapped up:

“I share in the desire of the family and the community to accurately collect and evaluate all the facts surrounding the tragic death of Trayvon Martin,” said Wolfinger in a statement released Tuesday morning. “That is why I directed the expeditious review of the investigation which was delivered by the Sanford Police Department one week ago today….I will also be utilizing the investigative resources of the Seminole County Grand Jury which will be called to session on Tuesday, April 10, 2012.’’ (emphasis, mine)

Read more here: miamiherald.com/2012/03/19/2703029/us-department-of-justice-fbi-and.html#storylink=cpy

Source

 

[gilliam]

Robert Zimmerman Jr., speaks out in defense of brother, George Zimmerman

“He prevented his firearm from being taken away from him,” Robert Zimmerman Jr., told Morgan. He said medical records will prove that his brother was attacked and his nose was broken by Martin before he fatally shot the teen.

Zimmerman said he wanted to correct some of the “mythology” and untruths that have been spread about the night of the shooting.

He said his brother didn’t chase anyone and had been on his way to Target, The Miami Herald reports. He thought Trayvon Martin looked suspicious as he walked around the gated community, not because of race, but because of what had been happening in the community. There had recently been several break-ins.

During the exchange with Trayvon, he said his brother reached to get his cell phone. He wanted to call 911 again, but “he never got to make that phone call because he was attacked by Mr. Martin.”

“You return force with force when somebody assaults you. George was out of breath, he was barely conscious,” Zimmerman said. “There would have been George dead if he had not acted decisively and instantaneously in that moment when he was being disarmed.”
cbsnews.com/8301-504083_162-57406988-504083/robert-zimmerman-jr-speaks-out-in-defense-of-brother-george-zimmerman/

 

[seekerz]

I don’t either. Therefore you can only assume, why make any personal conclusions based on ignorance? I would think it might be wiser, if one must assume, to draw a conclusion that Martin wasn’t innocently walking down the street minding his own business.

And on what basis would you draw such conclusions? The facts as we can discern them, indicate that Trayvon was where he was supposed to be, carrying products he had bought at a store and talking to his girlfriend on the phone…with those in mind, and with no allegations of wrong behavior in the 911 call, how can we assume he was using any of his 4 limbs to actually do, something wrong?

 

[HailStarofSea]

incense:

Hannity’s TV show played a clip from NBC news where they edited the 911 tape, leaving out the police dispatcher’s questions, making it sound like Zimmerman said something like “he looks suspicious, he’s black.”

Do you have a link to Hannity’s TV show clip from NBC news?

The media covering of the case was crucial to getting it turned over to higher authorities and serving as a “watchdog.” The lower authorities do not appear to have been correctly handling the case, judging from the illegal leaks, the witnesses who say that their statements were altered by the police, the witnesses who were never interviewed, and the temporary resignation of the police chief.

 

[Bocephus]

So we should ignore his girlfriend, who phone logs prove was on the phone with him, and believe Zimmerman, whose accounts have been contradicted by several others?

Where are these contradictions pertaining to his supposedly “suspicious” behavior?

Walking down the street is not usually suspicious in and of itself.

I can’t figure out why Zimmerman would call the police over something so normal…unless…

 

[seekerz]

Robert Zimmerman Jr., speaks out in defense of brother, George Zimmerman

“He prevented his firearm from being taken away from him,” Robert Zimmerman Jr., told Morgan. He said medical records will prove that his brother was attacked and his nose was broken by Martin before he fatally shot the teen.

Zimmerman said he wanted to correct some of the “mythology” and untruths that have been spread about the night of the shooting.

He said his brother didn’t chase anyone and had been on his way to Target, The Miami Herald reports. He thought Trayvon Martin looked suspicious as he walked around the gated community, not because of race, but because of what had been happening in the community. There had recently been several break-ins.

During the exchange with Trayvon, he said his brother reached to get his cell phone. He wanted to call 911 again, but “he never got to make that phone call because he was attacked by Mr. Martin.”

“You return force with force when somebody assaults you. George was out of breath, he was barely conscious,” Zimmerman said. “There would have been George dead if he had not acted decisively and instantaneously in that moment when he was being disarmed.”
cbsnews.com/8301-504083_162-57406988-504083/robert-zimmerman-jr-speaks-out-in-defense-of-brother-george-zimmerman/

That’s the part I don’t get with this secondhand testimony of Zimmerman’s brother, he says his brother did not chase anyone but it is clear from a transcript of the call, that:

1. he reported that Trayvon began to run
2. he subsequently responded in the affirmative to: ‘Are you following him’

So, what is his brother’s definition of the word chase?

 

[seekerz]

Yes, that is horrific to many of us, especially because his girlfriend apparently told him to run and he refused to run, saying “I’m not going to run, I’m just going to walk fast.”

Running can be seen as an admission of guilt or of fear, both of which are dangerous to exhibit when being pursued by a stranger.

 

[HailStarofSea]

Where are these contradictions pertaining to his supposedly “suspicious” behavior?

Walking down the street is not usually suspicious in and of itself.

I can’t figure out why Zimmerman would call the police over something so normal…unless…

Posted on contradictions here: forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=9120717&postcount=811

Some people think racial profiling was at issue. If so,

In 2011, the New York City Police Department stopped nearly 700,000 people, over half of which were black, and only nine percent of which were white. That certainly seems suspect in a city where nearly half of the population is white, and only one in four are black.

Advocates claim that the program is legal, necessary, and only a small price to pay for the potential of catching a criminal or recovering a weapon. But of all the people stopped in 2011, nearly 90 percent of them were completely innocent. Sure, it may be legal, but is it really making us safer?

huffingtonpost.com/jess-coleman/if-i-were-trayvon-martin_b_1376095.html

 

[scipio337]

What I’ve got are lots of unsubstantiated rumors spread by adults who should know better:

Source

I would suggest that everyone involved who has kids, should be thanking God today that the stuff their kids do when they aren’t looking, has never been used to justify their being shot dead.

A twitter feed is “unsubstantiated”? It was enough for sitting Reps to resign.

I’m not sure who used Martin’s (alleged) past activities as “justification”. We have to paint a complete picture and past actions (including drug use) would be relevant in a self defense case.

I’m sorry you don’t see it that way.

 

[seekerz]

Where are these contradictions pertaining to his supposedly “suspicious” behavior?

Walking down the street is not usually suspicious in and of itself.

I can’t figure out why Zimmerman would call the police over something so normal…unless…

…unless he grew extra arms (to actually do something wrong) or extra legs (to take him somewhere he wasn’t supposed to be).

 

[mtbender]

I have no idea what would be suspicious about that behavior in any neighborhood. Then again, I have no reason to believe he was eating and drinking either. I’ve heard the candy was for his brother.

But doesn’t the 911 transcript say that Martin was “walking around looking about.”

That to me is different than walking down the sidewalk…

So an unfamiliar face in a gated community “walking around looking about” to me could be considered suspicious. Especially in light of the recent break-ins that were mentioned early in the call.

 

[catharina]

I’m not kidding. If you state something as fact you need to provide a link here. It is in the forum rules.

So here it is again:

dailykos.com/story/2012/03/29/1078912/-The-Rest-of-Zimmerman-s-911-Call

911 dispatcher:
Are you following him? [2:24]
Zimmerman:
Yeah. [2:25]

911 dispatcher:
OK.
We don’t need you to do that. [2:26]

Zimmerman:
OK. [2:28]

911 dispatcher:
Alright, sir, what is your name? [2:34]

Zimmerman:
George. He ran.

911 dispatcher:
Alright, George, what’s your last name?

Zimmerman:
Zimmerman.

911 dispatcher:
What’s the phone number you’re calling from?

Zimmerman:
XXX

911 dispatcher:
Alright, George, we do have them on the way. Do you want to meet with the officer when they get out there?

Zimmerman:
Yeah.

911 dispatcher:
Alright, where are you going to meet with them at?

Zimmerman:
Um, if they come in through the gate, tell them to go straight past the clubhouse and, uh, straight past the clubhouse and make a left and then go past the mailboxes you’ll see my truck. [3:10]

911 dispatcher:
Alright, what address are you parked in front of? [3:21]

Zimmerman:
Um, I don’t know. It’s a cut-through so I don’t know the address. [3:25]

911 dispatcher:
OK, do you live in the area?

Zimmerman:
Yeah, yeah, I live here.

911 dispatcher:
OK, what’s your apartment number?

Zimmerman:
It’s a home. It’s XXX – oh, ****, I don’t want to give it out – I don’t know where this kid is [inaudible] [3:40]

911 dispatcher:
OK, do you just want to meet with them at the mailboxes then? [3:42]

Zimmerman:
Yeah, that’s fine. [3:43]

911 dispatcher:
Alright, George, I’ll let them know you’ll meet them at …

Zimmerman:
Could you have them call me and I’ll tell them where I’m at? [3:49]

911 dispatcher:
OK, that’s no problem.

Zimmerman:
My number … you’ve got it?

911 dispatcher:
Yeah, I’ve got it. XXX

Zimmerman:
Yeah, you got it.

911 dispatcher:
OK, no problem. I’ll let them know to call you when they’re in the area. [4:02]

Zimmerman:
Thanks.

911 dispatcher:
You’re welcome.

Call ends 4:07

Also from abc news

[abcnews.go.com/US/neighborhood-watch-killing-911-tape-reveals-racial-slur/story?id=15966309](http://abcnews.go.com/US/neighborhood-watch-killing-911-tape-reveals-racial-slur/story?id=15966309)


Click here to listen to an audio file of what Zimmerman said on the 911 call. 

AUDIO link of the call from Z

Also from cbs

miami.cbslocal.com/2012/03/17/911-calls-released-in-death-of-trayvon-martin/

"A dispatcher told Zimmerman not to follow Martin.

“This guy looks like he is up to no good. He is on drugs or something,” Zimmerman told the dispatcher. He also said the teen had his hand in his waistband and was looking at homes as he walked.

“These expletives. They always get away,” Zimmerman told the 911 dispatcher."

also from nbc
[nbcmiami.com/news/local/Martin-Family-Zimmerman-Didnt-Kill-Their-Son-in-Self-Defense-143046316.html](http://www.nbcmiami.com/news/local/Martin-Family-Zimmerman-Didnt-Kill-Their-Son-in-Self-Defense-143046316.html)

"This guy looks like he is up to no good. He is on drugs or something," Zimmerman told the dispatcher from his SUV. He added that the black teen had his hand in his waistband and was walking around looking at homes.

"These a-------. They always get away," Zimmerman said on a 911 call.

 

[seekerz]

A twitter feed is “unsubstantiated”? It was enough for sitting Reps to resign.

I’m not sure who used Martin’s (alleged) past activities as “justification”. We have to paint a complete picture and past actions (including drug use) would be relevant in a self defense case.

I’m sorry you don’t see it that way.

I’m sorry you don’t understand that Twitter accounts are not fingerprints. I’ve, at various times, had different Twitter accounts with different handles for interacting on different topics. If I dropped dead today you couldn’t tell if any of them belonged to me unless you had access to my computer and had considerable forensic skills.

 

[mtbender]

Running can be seen as an admission of guilt or of fear, both of which are dangerous to exhibit when being pursued by a stranger.

But according to the 911 transcript wasn’t he already running?

 

[seekerz]

But doesn’t the 911 transcript say that Martin was “walking around looking about.”

That to me is different than walking down the sidewalk…

So an unfamiliar face in a gated community “walking around looking about” to me could be considered suspicious. Especially in light of the recent break-ins that were mentioned early in the call.

I guess I’m more trusting: a stranger looking around would immediately appear as someone lost to me. Particularly if I was armed, I would feel it safe to approach such a stranger and offer my assistance.

 

[HailStarofSea]

But according to the 911 transcript wasn’t he already running?

The word “run” is ambiguous. His girlfriend says he was “walking fast”, someone was following him, and she told him to “run.” Zimmerman says he was running, and admits that he was following him.

 

[seekerz]

But according to the 911 transcript wasn’t he already running?

I’m not sure of the relation of the call timeline to to the transcript timeline. Maybe he thought the better of it and took her advice. Maybe Zimmerman interpreted walking fast as running. None of us know.

 

[catharina]

But doesn’t the 911 transcript say that Martin was “walking around looking about.”

That to me is different than walking down the sidewalk…

So an unfamiliar face in a gated community “walking around looking about” to me could be considered suspicious. Especially in light of the recent break-ins that were mentioned early in the call.

To me, anyone walking around looking about in a strange area
might simply be trying to find his way home. It was raining.
As I posted yeaterday, young folks don’t necessarily stick to the
sidewalks. It’s called “taking a shortcut” and it seems to me very ordinary.

 

[catharina]

i guess i’m more trusting: A stranger looking around would immediately appear as someone lost to me. particularly if i was armed, i would feel it safe to approach such a stranger and offer my assistance.

ditto.