Trayvon Martin: 'Shoot first' law under scrutiny

[maryjk]

Oh, sorry. Martin received a call from his girl friend (or a friend that was a girl) and she stayed on the phone with him until shortly before the fight. We don’t have a transcript of that call. I don’t think it was recorded and it would be considered private anyway.

Yes, but the poster, Jerry Miah, is claiming that Martin called 911, then called his girlfriend. He claims to have links to the information. I would like to see it.

 

[seekerz]

Why do you immediatly jump to physical appearence?

Because the child was doing nothing wrong that Zimmerman related, though he related a lot of physical details he observed. If Trayvon was doing something wrong, it stands to reason that would also have been related. We even know where his hands were, for heaven’s sake.

 

[seekerz]

his friends could just be offering their opinions. what matters is what george’s defense is. his attorney might have very well told him to keep his mouth shut, because he doesn’t want his words cross examined by the media. hopefully it will all come out during trial.

and as to “young black males” being a defense, i’m with you that that alone is no good. but george was reporting suspicious activity (by his standards) and also giving the description which was of a young black male. if i saw an arab man slowly opening a zipper of someone else’s luggage i’d report him. i’d also report it if it was an elderly white woman. to not report that suspicious activity because we are afraid the world will accuse us of racial profiling is utterly irrational.

again, we will have to wait and see for all the details of what george thought was suspicious. maybe he was going to fill in the officers when they arrived. ultimately though i’m not sure it really matters.

looking at a scenario that is clearly morally wrong, let’s just assume that george hated all black people and did not see trayvon do anything suspicious at all. he followed him and then went up to trayvon, and calmly asked what he was doing in his neighborhood and trayvon got upset and attacked him and started hitting his head on the pavement, george would still be right in defending himself. he’d be guilty of many things (making a false 911 call and slandering trayvon), but not murder or manslaughter.

again, i have no idea what happened. at this point i don’t think george was racist or was engaged in racial profiling. what really matters is when they were in each other’s presence. if we find out george was the first to get physical, then i hope he rots in jail for the rest of his life. if we find out trayvon started the assault then, george should be found innocent.

We have to wait for the details of the suspicious activity, but not to know where his hands were or what he allegedly said before grabbing for the gun of a man heavier than him? Everything else can be divulged except why a grown man chose to target a woman’s beloved child. Zimmerman had no suspicious behavior to report or he would have, simple.

 

[GaryTaylor]

you were right about oregon too. i just edited my other post and added this:

Deadly Force / Castle Doctrine:
Oregon is a Castle Doctrine state and does have a stand-your-ground law.
ORS 161.209-229. Use of force justifiable in a range of scenarios without a duty to retreat specified. Oregon Supreme Court affirmed in State of Oregon v. Sandoval that the law “sets out a specific set of circumstances that justify a person’s use of deadly force (that the person reasonably believes that another person is using or about to use deadly force against him or her) and does not interpose any additional requirement (including a requirement that there be no means of escape).”

usacarry.com/oregon_concealed_carry_permit_information.html

it looks like half the country has these laws.

26 states are very similar to Fla. The Castle Doctrine can have provisions though so you have read what they are.

 

[maryjk]

it looks like half the country has these laws.

Last time I looked 25 states have a “stand your ground” law. The problem isn’t the law. The problem is misapplication of the law.

Even the author of the Florida law states that the law cannot be applied to this situation. It has been linked throughout these threads.

If Zimmerman hunted down and shot Martin, he was not standing his ground.

If Martin approached Zimmerman and punched then beat him, he was not standing his ground.

It will come down to who approached whom.

 

[seekerz]

This matter may yet be closed.

Not without a trial it won’t be.

 

[johnnyjones]

Because the child was doing nothing wrong that Zimmerman related, though he related a lot of physical details he observed. If Trayvon was doing something wrong, it stands to reason that would also have been related. We even know where his hands were, for heaven’s sake.

Listen, heres where your making your mistake. First off ,I’ve been in law enforcement for 17 years, keep that in mind. All calls are not because someone is “doing wrong”. Calls can pertain to suspicious behavior of which I describe Zimmerman reported.

If Zimmerman ,as a community watchperson, didn’t call 911, especially after a rash of recent robberies, he could or would be perceived as negligent. He did the right thing. The question comes down to the extent of the 'following" that took place- It’s there that we reach a dead end and fill in the blanks with speculation.

 

[seekerz]

I support the right to carry, and this self-protection law. One case, even if Martin was innocent, and it’s becoming more apparent that he was NOT, the answer is to prosecute any person who uses this law to cover his own transgression. I imagine that many lives have been saved b/c the fear of God has been put into potentially homicidal criminals. :coffeeread: Rob

Yeah, the fear of God has been put into mothers of innocent kids too. Potentially homicidal criminals with a few grains of IQ could claim self-defense by covertly provoking little old ladies to attack them with their handbags.

And what basis do you have for claiming it’s apparent that Trayvon was not innocent? The strength of several different stories told by proxies for the accused? Which version did you settle on?

 

[GaryTaylor]

Even the author of the Florida law states that the law cannot be applied to this situation. It has been linked throughout these threads.

Thats what he said, but the Shoot First Defense is whats being used in court. Well have to see how it plays out.

 

[seekerz]

Listen, heres where your making your mistake. First off ,I’ve been in law enforcement for 17 years, keep that in mind. All calls are not because someone is “doing wrong”. Calls can pertain to suspicious behavior of which I describe Zimmerman reported.

If Zimmerman ,as a community watchperson, didn’t call 911, especially after a rash of recent robberies, he could or would be perceived as negligent. He did the right thing. The question comes down to the extent of the 'following" that took place- It’s there that we reach a dead end and fill in the blanks with speculation.

So what was the suspicious behavior? Looking around at houses = potentially lost, where I come from. And yes, I have been to Florida neighborhoods and walked around looking at houses.

 

[Bocephus]

Yeah, the fear of God has been put into mothers of innocent kids too. Potentially homicidal criminals with a few grains of IQ could claim self-defense by covertly provoking little old ladies to attack them with their handbags.

And what basis do you have for claiming it’s apparent that Trayvon was not guilty? The strength of several different stories told by proxies for the accused? Which version did you settle on?

In Florida the sex offenders alone should put the fear of god in them, not the big bad white brown guy.

I’m much more saddened by the story of Delric Miller shot and killed in a drive by in Detroit recently. The media doesn’t care though, a black baby shot by a black man with an AK doesn’t sell as good as the black kid shot by the brown guy with the white name.

Gotta keep folks like Sharpton in business somehow. I’m sure he blames the death of that baby on white people too.

 

[jen_fla]

We have to wait for the details of the suspicious activity, but not to know where his hands were or what he allegedly said before grabbing for the gun of a man heavier than him? Everything else can be divulged except why a grown man chose to target a woman’s beloved child. Zimmerman had no suspicious behavior to report or he would have, simple.

i don’t follow your first sentence. and it’s not that simple. maybe by the time the cops arrived he was in shock. maybe he did divulge and his attorney is keeping it under wraps. there is so much we just don’t know.

 

[johnnyjones]

So what was the suspicious behavior? Looking around at houses = potentially lost, where I come from. And yes, I have been to Florida neighborhoods and walked around looking at houses.

Your following this case and ask that question? Also I posted it. He acted like “he was on drugs”. Any modern street kid can pick up behavior like that. Actually most people can pick that up. Lets see what toxicology report says on Martin.

 

[jen_fla]

26 states are very similar to Fla. The Castle Doctrine can have provisions though so you have read what they are.

true. easter joy was wondering though about oregon, so i gave her a link. apparently no retreat in oregon either.

 

[jen_fla]

Last time I looked 25 states have a “stand your ground” law. The problem isn’t the law. The problem is misapplication of the law.

Even the author of the Florida law states that the law cannot be applied to this situation. It has been linked throughout these threads.

If Zimmerman hunted down and shot Martin, he was not standing his ground.

If Martin approached Zimmerman and punched then beat him, he was not standing his ground.

It will come down to who approached whom.

that is true.

it could also be that z pulled his gun out on m and m somehow got off the first punch in which case m would have been standing his ground.

it could also be that m got upset and attacked z and when he started bashing his head in, z stood his ground

 

[seekerz]

In Florida the sex offenders alone should put the fear of god in them, not the big bad white brown guy.

There’s away to distinguish sex offenders from innocent people by looking at them? I’m a Mom, so please tell, pray.

I’m much more saddened by the story of Delric Miller shot and killed in a drive by in Detroit recently. The media doesn’t care though, a black baby shot by a black man with an AK doesn’t sell as good as the black kid shot by the brown guy with the white name.

Did that black man get turned into a martyr for his deed? Was he arrested and charged? If so, kindly start a thread to tell us about that story which so saddened you…

Gotta keep folks like Sharpton in business somehow. I’m sure he blames the death of that baby on white people too.

As long as there are those who think some groups of people are dispensable based on what they look like, there’ll be a role for the Sharptons of the world.

 

[maryjk]

Thats what he said, but the Shoot First Defense is whats being used in court. Well have to see how it plays out.

Actually he is using a “self-defense” defense. There is no such thing as a “Shoot First” defense.

 

[seekerz]

Your following this case and ask that question? Also I posted it. He acted like “he was on drugs”. Any modern street kid can pick up behavior like that. Actually most people can pick that up. Lets see what toxicology report says on Martin.

Acting like “he was on drugs” is a deduction, i.e.it happens in one’s mind. No behavior was referenced to explain why he came to that conclusion inside his mind.

 

[jen_fla]

Listen, heres where your making your mistake. First off ,I’ve been in law enforcement for 17 years, keep that in mind. All calls are not because someone is “doing wrong”. Calls can pertain to suspicious behavior of which I describe Zimmerman reported.

If Zimmerman ,as a community watchperson, didn’t call 911, especially after a rash of recent robberies, he could or would be perceived as negligent. He did the right thing. The question comes down to the extent of the 'following" that took place- It’s there that we reach a dead end and fill in the blanks with speculation.

the family might sue the home owner’s association anyway.

cnn.com/2012/03/24/justice/florida-teen-shooting/index.html?hpt=hp_t2

articles.orlandosentinel.com/2012-03-24/news/os-trayvon-martin-no-hoa-lawsuit-20120324_1_civil-lawsuit-neighborhood-watch-nabj

 

[seekerz]

Show me your company and I’ll tell something about you. An unidentified neighbor just called to recount a touching story of how Zimmerman supported her after two 17 yr old African-American boys broke in on her and her baby.

Guess that means I need to start packing and pursuing every classmate of my child who looks like the two involved in local school shootings recently…