Trayvon Martin: 'Shoot first' law under scrutiny

[Dawnia]

I remember now why I left in the first place-you just get ganged up on and insulted if you take any line outside the Republican Party line.

I must have missed something. When did this become a Republican/Democrat thing?

 

[EasterJoy]

What does it say that this either is, or may be, the longest running thread in CAF history?

It isn’t even close, I’m sure. This is just Part 1, after all! I’ve seen threads run to the max allowed (999 posts, I think) and then be restarted and run that second thread to the max and on and on…

OK, maybe this one is close. But it isn’t that unusual. What may be close to the record is how fast this thing runs. We could be through the 2nd iteration already, it makes my head spin. It is almost impossible to keep up with all the posts, let alone to do so while running an “actual life” on the side.

 

[ComputerGeek25]

Yeah they made a dumb mistake. But look at all the stuff in the media trying to blame the dead kid. Look at FOX giving the killer’s father a platform to make any charge he wants, make nonsense claims, unchallenged. The killer’s father actually said “I never foresaw so much hate coming from the president…” What?

Look at ABC showing an “enhanced” video image showing a little mark on Zimmerman’s head, and they show only one frame, as if that proves something. (That whole thing is ridiculous – if Trayvon bashed Zimmerman’s into concrete, Zimmerman would have gone to the hospital. EMT would not have let Zimmerman just walk away like they did, due to liability issues for the EMTs and the police. Zimmerman was examined briefly and cleared to leave; very minor injuries at most, obviously.)

There’s been bad reporting on both sides. But there was only one person packing a gun and literally looking for trouble, and there was only one person, unarmed, left dead. The only reason we are discussing it is because the police bungled the investigation (forcing the Police Chief to resign "temporarily) and the DA mysteriously refused to charge the killer. The lead investigator wanted a manslaughter charge against Zimmerman. If that had happened, this would be a minor story (albeit still a tragedy) and the truth would come out in a trial. Instead it’s a national scandal.

I am merely reporting the news.

How about both sides stop with the race baiting?

 

[Dawnia]

Again, this interpretation doesn’t make any sense. So now, under Florida law, if you claim to have used self-defense…you can’t ever be charged with a crime?

Yup. That is how the law reads. If someone claims self-defense and the claim meshes with the physical evidence/witnesses during the investigation, then the person can not be charged with a crime. If you look further into the law, it says they can’t be civilly sued either.

 

[EasterJoy]

I must have missed something. When did this become a Republican/Democrat thing?

Isn’t everything a Republican/Democrat thing?
Or a Progressive/Traditional thing or a liberal/conservative thing or…?

It’s been so long since I’ve run into a topic that doesn’t have two polarized sides trying to rush in, dominate, and rigidly frame the whole conversation before it has gotten started, I’ve almost forgotten what that feels like.

You’d almost think that every bed in America has a voodoo doll at bedside, either a Bush or an Obama, just bristling with stick pins.

 

[Dawnia]

Isn’t everything a Republican/Democrat thing?
Or a Progressive/Traditional thing or a liberal/conservative thing or…?

It’s been so long since I’ve run into a topic that doesn’t have two polarized sides trying to rush in, dominate, and rigidly frame the whole conversation before it has gotten started, I’ve almost forgotten what that feels like.

You’d almost think that every bed in America has a voodoo doll at bedside, either a Bush or an Obama, just bristling with stick pins.

I’d have one of each. I like playing in the middle.

 

[SamH]

I must have missed something. When did this become a Republican/Democrat thing?

Zimmerman is a registered democrat.

 

[Jerry_Miah]

I am merely reporting the news.

How about both sides stop with the race baiting?

What? I didn’t mention race

 

[SwizzleStick]

"Dem Reps Sponsor Resolution Blaming ‘Racial Bias’ For Trayvon Shooting

There is little to no evidence that George Zimmerman shot Trayvon Martin because Martin was black. But that hasn’t stopped members of the Congressional Black Caucus from sponsoring a resolution linking Martin to gun control and lamenting supposed racial profiling of the teenager:"…

Source and entire article: breitbart.com/Big-Government/2012/04/04/Congressional-Black-Caucus-Trayvon-Resolution

 

[SwizzleStick]

The implication is that the editing job was a mistake and not intentional.

"NBC issues apology on Zimmerman tape screw-up

NBC has completed its investigation into the mishandling of the police dispatcher’s conversation with George Zimmerman in the Trayvon Martin case. And the process ends with a finding of error, plus an apology. Here is the statement just issued by the network:"…

Source and entire opinion: washingtonpost.com/blogs/erik-wemple/post/nbc-issues-apology-on-zimmerman-tape-screw-up/2012/04/03/gIQA8m5jtS_blog.html

 

[donsnow]

And the DA WILL decide Don-----that;s what the protestors have been saying all along. Read also my two other posts.

Good afternoon, OrdinaryMelkite,

Well, I’ve a sneaky hunch that the “DA” you refer to is not the Sanford, Fla DA, but some kind of “special prosecutor” provided by the witch hunt against George Zimmerman.

“anger has it’s origin in one’s consciousness of having been injured. anger and revenge
are sins against meekness and mercy.” from: “the Light of the world”
by: edward malone, O.S.B

God loves you,
Don

 

[Jerry_Miah]

He was carrying the gun legally, and what are Neighborhood Watch supposed to do, besides “look for trouble?”

So you agree that he was looking for trouble. Fine.

Neighborhood Watch is supposed to watch, not pursue people like Zimmerman did; police authorities told him that. Zimmerman appears to be one of those cop-wannabes; he’s definitely someone with violence and self-control issues.

Another theory about why he got let off might just be personal favoritism – he was well known as a cop fanboy in the area, having had dozens of personal interactions with them over the years. Maybe they just let him off because he was a personal friend who they considered on their side.

 

[pnewton]

If they went toe to toe and Martin just got the first punch in and won the fist fight, then Zimmerman shot him…that’s a different story.

A duty to retreat is assuming you have the ability to retreat from the confrontation. Zimmerman wasn’t standing his ground if he was on the ground getting pounded.

Yes, duty to retreat assumes one has a chance to retreat, which is why it is an affirmative defense that one must give in a court of law, and is not to be assumed by the DA or the police, in any other state but Florida.

We do not know who threw the first punch, and will never know. Nor will we know any side except Zimmerman’s; he said, he dead, as it were.

In Texas, self-defense is preponderance of evidence. The shooter must show he could not retreat and was in fear of his life by at least most of the evidence. The burden of proof is on him, though it is not as severe as proving beyond reasonable doubt. While I am no lawyer, I do remember this from a jury instruction. Granted, this may have changed since I heard this instruction.

FYI - Here is Texas law. You will see that it would not protect Zimmerman from prosecution here.

capitol.state.tx.us/BillLookup/BillSummary.aspx?LegSess=80R&Bill=SB378

 

[Bocephus]

Also…

In 2010 race-related beating case, George Zimmerman pushed to discipline same officers who investigated Trayvon Martin shooting

After Justin Collison surrendered himself to authorities, the Sanford Police Department struggled to hold its officials accountable. A lengthy investigation conducted by the Seminole County Sheriff’s Office concluded that the police officials involved did not offer Justin Collison “preferential treatment.”

Still, according to members of the Zimmerman family, George printed and distributed copies of fliers on bright fluorescent-colored paper demanding that the community “hold accountable” officers responsible for any misconduct. TheDC has obtained a copy of one of those fliers.

“Do you know the individual that stepped up when no one else in the black community would?” the Zimmerman family member asked in the letter to the NAACP’s Clayton.

“Do you know who spent tireless hours putting fliers on the cars of persons parked in the churches of the black community? Do you know who waited for the church‐goers to get out of church so that he could hand them fliers in an attempt to organize the black community against this horrible miscarriage of justice? Do you know who helped organize the City Hall meeting on January 8th, 2011 at Sanford City Hall??”

“That person was GEORGE ZIMMERMAN,” the letter insisted. “Ironic isn’t it?”

Every Sunday, according to his family, Zimmerman would stroll through Sanford’s black neighborhoods handing out the fliers demanding justice for Sherman Ware, and calling for the police to hold their own officials accountable. Zimmerman would also place the fliers on people’s cars outside churches.

“I challenge you to stand together and to have our voices heard, and to hold accountable all of those officers, and officials whom let this atrocious attack pass unpunished until the media revealed it,” one of the fliers reads in part. “This animal could have attacked anyone of us, our children or loved ones in his alcohol fueled rage.”

The officers whom Zimmerman targeted for accountability in the Sherman Ware incident were all cleared by the Seminole County Sheriff’s investigation, despite Zimmerman’s repeated accusations that police gave kid-glove treatment to a white officer’s son who beat a defenseless, homeless black man.

But 14 months later, at least two of the same officers investigated the shooting death of Trayvon Martin — and cleared Zimmerman — even though his voice was the loudest calling for their punishment in the Ware case.

One of those officers was Timothy Smith. According to a police incident report from the scene of the Feb. 26 shooting, Officer Smith handcuffed Zimmerman and transported him to the police station. Another was Sergeant Anthony Raimondo, who was on scene with Smith and other local officers.

dailycaller.com/2012/04/04/zimmerman-demanded-discipline-in-2010-race-related-beating-for-officers-who-investigated-martin-shooting/

 

[pnewton]

I also found this, if one believes wiki:

Burden of ProofBecause an affirmative defense requires an assertion of facts beyond those claimed by the plaintiff, generally the party who offers an affirmative defense bears the burden of proof.[6] The standard of proof is typically lower than beyond a reasonable doubt. It can either be proved by clear and convincing evidence or by a preponderance of the evidence. In some cases or jurisdictions, however, the defense must only be asserted, and the prosecution has the burden to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that the defense is not applicable.citation needed]

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Affirmative_defense

 

[donsnow]

I don’t really like this McCarthyite line of questioning-I feel like the next thing you’ll be asking me is if I’m a communist. I am an American, not that this matters here.

Whether or not this is a clear case of self-defense is up for dispute. I do not agree with you that Zimmerman was an honest citizen pressed to a hard choice, I believe that Zimmerman made some exceptionally foolish decisions that led to a young man’s death. I believe that a trial is warranted.

Good afternoon, Lujack,

Oh, but it does matter, when your anonymous header and profile don’t show where you’re from, nor your religion. Look at the header on my posts and look at my profile … I post under my identity, not anonymously. And, so, I have one more question: are you even Catholic?

And, I’ll tell you why that matters:

“anger has it’s origin in one’s consciousness of having been injured. anger and revenge
are sins against meekness and mercy.” from: “the Light of the world”
by: edward malone, O.S.B

We Catholics and other Christians should show the same charity and mercy in grace and truth to the living Geroge Zimmerman as we do to the dead Trayvon Martin and his family.

By the way, only the media and DOJ and FBI witch hunt have brought the Sanford, Fla PD ruling of self defense into dispute. Without the witch hunt, there’s no dispute.

If you don’t like being labeled part of a witch hunt, then drop the grudge against Florida law and view George Zimmerman with Catholic charity and mercy. Or, if you’re not Catholic, then with Christian grace and truth.

God loves you,
Don

 

[donsnow]

That’s just not true. The “duty to retreat” was a part of English common law since before the creation of the American Republic, and with the rest of English common law became the basis of American law (with the exception of Louisiana). In fact, the idea of self-defense as an acceptable affirmative defense is younger than the idea of “duty to retreat”-William Blackstone refused to acknowledge it in his own legal commentaries, saying that “All homicides are a public evil.” We’ve fortunately moved away from that extreme, but we certainly don’t need to go to the other of “It is acceptable to kill anyone who threatens you.”

Now before you call Blackstone unAmerican, bear in mind that the first Supreme Court Justices of the United States relied very heavily on Blackstone in their decisionmaking, his influence is clearly visible in the Constitution and the Federalist Papers, Supreme Court Justice John Marshall considered him the highest authority, and his commentaries were the standard legal textbook for would-be American lawyers even into the 1860’s.

Hi, Lujack,

But, it’s true that the “Duty to retreat” is an old English principle. So, what are you saying that’s not true?

By the way, the original law in the entire American SouthWest is Spanish, not English.

God loves you,
Don

 

[Jerry_Miah]

Also…

dailycaller.com/2012/04/04/zimmerman-demanded-discipline-in-2010-race-related-beating-for-officers-who-investigated-martin-shooting/

“according to members of the Zimmerman family” + Daily Caller = zero

A review of the DC homepage shows their authorities on matters include Rush Limbaugh and FOX’s Hannity. They get an F for fake news.

 

[Dawnia]

“according to members of the Zimmerman family” + Daily Caller = zero

A review of the DC homepage shows their authorities on matters include Rush Limbaugh and FOX’s Hannity. They get an F for fake news.

Wow! Tell us how you really feel.

 

[Bocephus]

“according to members of the Zimmerman family” + Daily Caller = zero

A review of the DC homepage shows their authorities on matters include Rush Limbaugh and FOX’s Hannity. They get an F for fake news.