Trent Horn debate with James White: watch here!

[MT1926]

JUSTIFICATION IN CATHOLIC TEACHING by Jimmy Akin

Quote: “The essence of supernatural love is unselfishness—doing something NOT

BECAUSE IT WILL HELP US SOMEHOW, but because we want to do it out of SHEER

LOVE for the other person, whether that person is God or one of our fellow human beings

out of the love of God.

This is THE ONLY KIND of love that ultimately pleases God and therefore the ONLY

KIND that ultimately gets us a reward IN heaven.” End quote. Emphasize mine.

I have no problem with this.

If we not set free to love freely, we cannot love.

If we not set free to freely decide to work, we cannot do supernatural work/merit.

We cannot please God with the work we MUST do, because we cannot do it FREELY,

WITHOUT any EXTERNAL COERCION or INTERNAL NECESSITY. **– The work we

MUST do is NOT supernatural work!!!**

MUST always kills our supernatural works/good works.

Sorry I disagree with this. You are taking this to the extreme. You believe this to be black and white. I don’t believe God sees it that way.

You are ignoring the fact that quite often MUST turns into WANT. So the straw can turn to gold. And sometimes the WANT can easily turn to MUST. Which makes the gold turn back to straw.

It’s not as simple as you make it out to be. Doing something out of sheer love for another isn’t always one simple step that is checked off by God as being good works or not. Sometimes this supernatural work can be a commitment that last for years. At certain times it can be supernatural and other times not. Also, you are not thinking as a father does. The fact that your child does something that they “MUST” has different degrees of Love. Sometimes the pure and simple truth that they are forcing themselves to do something that they “MUST”, but that they really don’t want to do, is the purest act of Love they could ever show you. Now that is supernatural love.

This is the Only Work which is Supernatural:

Doing something, DECIDED FREELY without the fear of hell,

**work done **NOT BECAUSE IT WILL HELP US SOMEHOW,

**but because **we want to do it out of SHEER LOVE for the Glory of God, or help other person out of sheer love.

The works we do to prove ourselves, to get our salvation or to keep our salvation, **we do it by EXTERNAL COERCION and INTERNAL NECESSITY for our own interest **and this works are wood, hay and straw rejected by God and all our works goes up in smoke at the judgment of our works. – 1 Cor.3:12-15.

I have no idea what you are getting at here? It sounds like you are trying to say that if we are going to mass and the sacraments because we believe that is what Jesus says we have to do, then these are only done because of “EXTERNAL COERCION and INTERNAL NECESSITY for our own interest.”

You are confusing me. If this is what you are trying to get at I don’t agree. Just because you are following the rules does not prove external coercion.

You’ve got me confused.

Finally, I just wanted to point out. DO you realize you picked and chose what you wanted from Jimmy’s article? To fit it into your theological argument.

Did you read these parts of the article?

Then it turns to the possibility of failing to persevere in God’s grace, of losing one’s justification, and of subsequently regaining it (ch.s 12-15).

Chapter nine brings to a close the discussion of our initial justification, and makes the very simple point that a person is not saved simply because he thinks he is.

In fact, this chapter teaches, no one should presume to claim to believe, “with the certainty of faith, which cannot be subject to error, that he” is in a state of grace.

This is true: we can have assurance that we are in a state of grace. However, what Trent is forbidding is the presumption to know “with the certainty of faith, which cannot be subject to error,” that this is the case.

We can know with the certainty of faith that,** if we do what Jesus says to do** in order to be justified (i.e., repent, believe, etc.), we will be in a state of grace, but since it nowhere says in the Bible, “Jimmy Akin has done what is necessary to be justified,” **I cannot know with the certainty of faith that I have done what is required. **

By examining myself, I can have very good reason to think that I have done so, and can thus have very great confidence in the fact that I am justified. But I always have to infer my justification, and since the human process of inference is fallible, I cannot know with infallible certainty that I am justified.

The point is that,** apart from a special revelation from God**, I have no infallible means of knowing that I am not one of these people, and so even though I can have very great assurance of my justification, I cannot have infallible, no-possibility-of-error, certainty of faith that I am justified.

Jimmy says the exact same thing Dr. Anders did, which you rejected. How many times do you have to read it before believing?

Read Jimmy’s article again and take everything he says into account before coming to a conclusion.

God Bless

 

[MT1926]

This is as follows a genuine question.
Whose Words do you trust with your life MT?

God bless,

LatinRight

Latin,

This is a very good question. I have no problem answering it, however before I do I wanted to share a bit of my life with you so you can see why I answer the way that I do.

God gave me the gift of perseverance at an early age. I was able to accomplish anything that I put my mind to. At the age of 18 I decided to become a Chiropractor, because I wanted to have the ability to heal people with my hands and not just a pill. (Disclaimer I have a lot of MD friends and do think the world of their profession, just wasn’t for me). Anyway, when I put my heart and mind to something their is no stopping me. I squeezed 9 years of college into 5 years taking 23-35 credits a semester while working 32 hours a week to pay for living expenses. After graduating 23 years ago started my own business and continue to work 65 hours a week to this day. In my free time I decided to buy a farm taught myself how to raising, sheep, chickens, cows and pigs. Since, it was an old farm I also had to teach myself how to do contracting work as well as carpentry. I also owned a custom cabinet shop and built furniture and custom kitchen remodels for others. Also, bought a couple of houses that I remodeled through the years, learning plumbing, electrical, roofing, you name it I learned it.

I’m not trying to show off, I am just trying to point out that God has given me the ability to pretty much learn and accomplish anything I put my heart into. With that being said my answer to your question would be there is no way I would ever trust my salvation to my own fallible interpretation of the Bible. I am sure if I put my mind to it I could learn a lot, but my experience so far has shown me that God’s plan of salvation is much deeper than I could ever dream to learn in a lifetime.

When it comes to the Bible I am fully aware that Christ left us a teaching authority. He did not leave me a Bible nor did he leave me in charge of it’s interpretation. With all of the talents and abilities God has given me above, I thank him every day for also making me humble enough to say:

Acts 8:31 He replied, “How can I, unless someone guides me?” And he invited Philip to get in and sit beside him.

God brought great men into my life to teach me. Men like, Dr. Scott Hahn, Tim Staples, Jimmy Akin, Trent Horn, Dr. David Andres, etc. I feel confident in placing my trust in their words for my salvation.

You answered:

I give you my ANSWER with two Bible verses, which are:

John 5:24;
“Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My Word and believes in Him who sent me has EVERLASTING LIFE, and shall NOT COME INTO JUDGMENT, but has PASSED from death into LIFE.”

(As elect we will stand before the judgment seat but only our works will be judged for reward or no reward, our salvation is not at stake.)

1 John 5:13;
“I write this to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that YOU MAY KNOW THAT YOU HAVE ETERNAL LIFE.”

Is it really John 5:24 and 1 John 5:13; teachings are correct?

Let’s see:

Combined John 5:24 and 1 John 5:13 proclaims:

He who believes the Word of God and in the name of the Son of God they MAY KNOW: They HAVE ETERNAL LIFE.

It is a simple and MOST ASSURED statement of the Lord Jesus Christ, reinforced in 1 John 5:13; Rom.6:23b; etc.

I say this with all kindness Latin, this is where your answer is wrong. You can not give an answer using just 2 verses of the Bible. I already showed you that you need the rest of the Bible to be able to understand what is meant by “believe”. Also, you need to come to the realization that you are not placing your salvation in the words of the Bible, you are placing your salvation on your own words. The words that you believe is the message of those 2 verses, and the words you are picking and choosing from articles you are reading.

Jimmy, as did Dr. Anders, made sure to clarify that a person can lose their salvation and that we can not know with 100% certainty that we are saved. You choose to ignore these words and even go so far as to say they are not feeding us with “real” spiritual truth. That is a bold claim to make.

God Bless Latin

 

[MT1926]

Continuation

To know the test result, we only need to know, do we believe the Word of God and do we believe in the name of the Son of God?

And if our answers are yes to both questions then the test is done, and we KNOW who we are and we obeyed God’s command.

Seems to me God really cares for us, including our faith, our peace and our mental health.

If you think MT I made some mistake in my posts, please point them out to me.

God bless,

LatinRight

First let me point out that you can stop posting about the elect and reprobates. I have no problem with that teaching. The issue I am having and have had from the start is I agree with Dr. Anders and Jimmy Akin, there is absolutely no way we can know with 100% certainty that we are among the elect.

I believe your test is inaccurate and does not stand up to the rest of the Bible. I think the big issue we are having is you have never defined what it means to believe? Maybe if you could do that and show me from the Bible your understanding of what belief is it would help.

In John 3:36 we are told, “Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever disobeys the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God remains upon him.”

So a part of belief is obeying Jesus and all that he tells us to do.

Romans 6:23: “The wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.”

Part of belief is not sinning.

Matthew 25:31-46New Revised Standard Version Catholic Edition (NRSVCE)

The Judgment of the Nations
31 “When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit on the throne of his glory. 32 All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats, 33 and he will put the sheep at his right hand and the goats at the left. 34 Then the king will say to those at his right hand, ‘Come, you that are blessed by my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world; 35 for I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you welcomed me, 36 I was naked and you gave me clothing, I was sick and you took care of me, I was in prison and you visited me.’ 37 Then the righteous will answer him, ‘Lord, when was it that we saw you hungry and gave you food, or thirsty and gave you something to drink? 38 And when was it that we saw you a stranger and welcomed you, or naked and gave you clothing? 39 And when was it that we saw you sick or in prison and visited you?’ 40 And the king will answer them, ‘Truly I tell you, just as you did it to one of the least of these who are members of my family,[a] you did it to me.’ 41 Then he will say to those at his left hand, ‘You that are accursed, depart from me into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels; 42 for I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43 I was a stranger and you did not welcome me, naked and you did not give me clothing, sick and in prison and you did not visit me.’ 44 Then they also will answer, ‘Lord, when was it that we saw you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not take care of you?’ 45 Then he will answer them, ‘Truly I tell you, just as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to me.’ 46 And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

Although we cannot earn God’s unmerited favor by our good works, we can reject his love by our sins or by not loving our neighbor (that is, by our evil works) and thereby lose the eternal life he freely offers us in Christ. Which goes back to my earlier point part of belief is having works that are more than straw.

Matthew 24:13 But the one who endures to the end will be saved.

Part of belief is believing until the day you die. We can not know something major might happen in our life that would make us turn away from God.

Here’s another good article that goes into the assurance of salvation topic for you to read.

catholic.com/tract/assurance-of-salvation

God Bless

 

[LatinRight]

Not sure where you are going with this verse I think St. Paul saying “I HOPE” actually goes along with what Dr. Anders says above. Basically, I hope you will find out, when you die…

God Bless

God bless MT and every member of the CAF,

As follows I tried to prove you MT God not only want His children/elect to know right now that they are elect/saved but God even COMMAND HIS CHILDREN/ELECT to test that they are elect/saved/predestined to heaven or they are reprobate/predestined to hell.

I’m sure you know MT, an elect of God CANNOT lose salvation and a reprobate CANNOT end up in heaven. - DE FIDE Dogma.

Let’s see what The Word of God has to say about the teachings that a God’s child/elect cannot know they are God’s child/elect as long as he is alive.

2 Cor.13:5-6;

Quote: “Examine yourselves, to see whether you are holding to your faith.

TEST YOURSELVES.

Do you not realize that Jesus Christ is in you? – unless indeed you fail to meet the test!

I hope YOU WILL FIND OUT that we have not failed.” End quote.

Your answer MT of the above test as follows:

Not sure where you are going with this verse I think St. Paul saying “I HOPE” actually goes along with What Dr. Anders says above. Basucally “I HOPE” you will find out, when you die ……

Now, if your above statement MT is correct, St. Paul saying/Word of God saying with Dr. Anders. Basically “I HOPE” you will find out, when you die …

Everything you have written in your posts concerning we cannot know we are elect/saved until we die are correct.

BUT and there is a VERY BIG BUT, if 2 Cor.13:5-6 means, we must know the test result at the time we do the test now, then everything you have written in your posts that we cannot know the test result now, we have to wait to know the test result until we die, than all your reasoning comes down like the house of cards.

So it is no question, according to God’s COMMAND in 2 Cor.13:5-6, we MUST do the test RIGHT NOW, the question is:

Should we know the test result now at the time we do the test, or do we have to wait to know the test result after we die?

The Lord Jesus Christ / The Word of God answer the above question.

John 5:24;
“Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My Word and believes in Him who sent me has EVERLASTING LIFE, and shall NOT COME INTO JUDGMENT, but has PASSED from death into LIFE.”

(As elect we will stand before the judgment seat but only our works will be judged for reward or no reward, our salvation is not at stake.)

1 John 5:13;
“I write this to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that YOU MAY KNOW THAT YOU HAVE ETERNAL LIFE.”

Make it clear: There is no contradiction in the Bible!!!
Not even one Bible verse contradicts John 5:24; 1 John 5:13; Rom.6:23b; 2 Cor.13:5-6; Rom.8:29-30; etc. etc.

Can be a test done now without the ability to know the test result?
If we don’t have the ability to know the test results we cannot do the test!

When God COMMANDS us to do a test, God provides us the ability to do the test and to know the test result.

As we see: God not only given His children/elect the COMMAND TO TEST THEIR FAITH / POSITION but at the same time God has given His children/elect the ability to know the test results.

Of course would be foolish to think, God gives the COMMAND His children to test who they are without given His children/elect the ability to know the test results.

Even more foolish to think God has given His children a COMMAND to do the test of their identity now and they have to wait to know he test result** after when they die. **

What is the reason to do the test now if there is no way to know the test result now??? Simply the test couldn’t be done.

Thank you MT your suggested readings.

I always study very carefully your suggested readings.

God bless.

LatinRight

 

[LatinRight]

I might be misunderstanding you here, but I do not think I agree with this reasoning. I think you are pushing this to far to try to prove a point that doesn’t exist. Think about it from a logical point of view. If all of our work is burned up in the fire that could only mean we did absolutely nothing good for anyone anywhere throughout our entire life. This includes doing absolutely nothing for good for God.

God Bless

God bless MT and every reader of the CAF,

**To do supernatural works the standard is very high.

CONDITIONS THAT OUR WORKS (OUR DEEDS) COUNT FOR ANYTHING

Conditions MUST BE PRESENT to make SUPERNATURAL MERIT possible.**

The meritorious work must be morally good, that is, in accordance with the moral law in its

object, intent, and circumstances.

It MUST be done FREELY, WITHOUT any EXTERNAL COERCION or INTERNAL NECESSITY.

It MUST be SUPERNATURAL, that is, AROUSED and ACCOMPANIED by ACTUAL

GRACE, and proceeding from a SUPERNATURAL motive.

Strictly speaking only a person in the STATE OF GRACE can merit, as defined by the

Church (Denzinger 1576, 1582).

JUSTIFICATION IN CATHOLIC TEACHING by Jimmy Akin

Quote: “The essence of supernatural love is unselfishness—doing something NOT

BECAUSE IT WILL HELP US SOMEHOW, but because we want to do it out of SHEER

LOVE for the other person, whether that person is God or one of our fellow human beings

out of the love of God.

This is THE ONLY KIND of love that ultimately pleases God and therefore the ONLY

KIND that ultimately gets us a reward IN heaven.” End quote. Emphasize mine.

If we not set free to love freely, we cannot love.

If we not set free to freely decide to work, we cannot do supernatural work/merit.

We cannot please God with the work we MUST do, because we cannot do it FREELY,

WITHOUT any EXTERNAL COERCION or INTERNAL NECESSITY. **– The work we

MUST do is NOT supernatural work!!!**

MUST always kills our supernatural works/good works.

**Supernatural work is: **

Doing something, DECIDED FREELY without the fear of hell,

**work done **NOT BECAUSE IT WILL HELP US SOMEHOW,

**but because **we want to do it out of SHEER LOVE for the Glory of God, or help other person out of sheer love.

**SUPERNATURAL WORKS / MERIT FOR SUPERNATURAL WORKS

An example:**

There are two elect of God working together, doing the EXACT SAME works.

Elect a, knows salvation is by Grace alone, Faith alone, he is Justified apart from works, all his works done by decided freely without the fear of hell.
ALL HIS WORKS done out of love for the Glory of God and out of love for others.

Elect b, believes his** salvation is by Faith + Works,** he is working in all his life.
ALL HIS WORKS done to achieve his salvation before he dies.

Elect a, and Elect b, working together, doing exactly the same Christian works.

Elect a, stands before the judgment seat of 1 Cor.3:12-15.
All his works are gold, silver, precious stones, he enters into heaven with lot of rewards.

His glory and position in heaven determined by God according to the outcome of the judgment of his works.

Elect b, stands before the judgment seat of 1 Cor.3:12-15.
All his life works done to achieve his salvation before he dies.

All his life works are wood, hay and straw, rejected by God and all his life works goes up in smoke at the judgment of his works.

He enters heaven by Grace alone, Faith alone, because all his life works went up in smoke at the judgment of his works.

I guess, sooner a later we all have to learn:
Our salvation is by Grace alone, Faith alone, we have been justified apart from our works.

Elect b, glory and position in heaven also determined by God according to the outcome of the judgment of his works.

WHAT ABOUT OUR WORKS IN THE SACRAMENTS?

If we do the sacraments not because we have to but because we love to out of sheer love for the glory of God, that is supernatural merit.

If we do the sacraments because we have to that is NOT supernatural merit but of course the sacraments still works.

**SOMEONE MAY ASK: **
What happen in an elect of God decide don’t do the sacraments any longer or rejects Christ or His Word?

ANSWER:
That is a theological impossibility because the salvation of every elect of God is ETERNALLY PROTECTED by God’s special grace “The Gift of Final Perseverance.”
MT you should be happy for and learn the Catholic Church teachings on the elect and reprobates because that knowledge gives you the understanding of salvation.

If you would read my posts carefully MT you would know:

The memory and the will of the “Reprobate-Christians” not contain the desire to go to heaven, or to have everlasting life with God in heaven, or to persevere to the end of life.

You MT would also know if your memory and will contains the desire to go to heaven, to have everlasting life and to persevere to the end of life, there is no way that you could be a reprobate.

God bless.

LatinRight

 

[LatinRight]

Latin,

This is a very good question. I have no problem answering it, however before I do I wanted to share a bit of my life with you so you can see why I answer the way that I do.

God gave me the gift of perseverance at an early age. I was able to accomplish anything that I put my mind to. At the age of 18 I decided to become a Chiropractor, because I wanted to have the ability to heal people with my hands and not just a pill. (Disclaimer I have a lot of MD friends and do think the world of their profession, just wasn’t for me). Anyway, when I put my heart and mind to something their is no stopping me. I squeezed 9 years of college into 5 years taking 23-35 credits a semester while working 32 hours a week to pay for living expenses. After graduating 23 years ago started my own business and continue to work 65 hours a week to this day. In my free time I decided to buy a farm taught myself how to raising, sheep, chickens, cows and pigs. Since, it was an old farm I also had to teach myself how to do contracting work as well as carpentry. I also owned a custom cabinet shop and built furniture and custom kitchen remodels for others. Also, bought a couple of houses that I remodeled through the years, learning plumbing, electrical, roofing, you name it I learned it.

I’m not trying to show off, I am just trying to point out that God has given me the ability to pretty much learn and accomplish anything I put my heart into. With that being said my answer to your question would be there is no way I would ever trust my salvation to my own fallible interpretation of the Bible. I am sure if I put my mind to it I could learn a lot, but my experience so far has shown me that God’s plan of salvation is much deeper than I could ever dream to learn in a lifetime.

When it comes to the Bible I am fully aware that Christ left us a teaching authority. He did not leave me a Bible nor did he leave me in charge of it’s interpretation. With all of the talents and abilities God has given me above, I thank him every day for also making me humble enough to say:

Acts 8:31 He replied, “How can I, unless someone guides me?” And he invited Philip to get in and sit beside him.

God brought great men into my life to teach me. Men like, Dr. Scott Hahn, Tim Staples, Jimmy Akin, Trent Horn, Dr. David Andres, etc. I feel confident in placing my trust in their words for my salvation.

God Bless Latin

God bless MT and every reader of the CAF,

Thank you MT that you sharing with me.
Your life is a real success, you MT really achieved a lot.

Now about your spiritual life MT:

I don’t believe MT that Benedict XVI and the Catholic Church agree with your above statement/decision that you, instead of Christ and His Word you placing your trust and your salvation into the words of fallible humans.

I agree we need great teachers whose teachings like good wells, comes out living waters builds up our faith, liberate our souls.

But we better without those teachers whose teachings like bad wells, comes out dead waters, the destruction of our faith, fear and enslavement of our souls.

OF THE SUPREME PONTIFF BENEDICT XVI PORTA FIDEI

Quote: We cannot accept that salt should become tasteless or the light be kept hidden (cf. Mt 5:13-16). The people of today can still experience the need to go to the well, like the Samaritan woman, in order to hear Jesus, who invites us to believe in him and to draw upon the source of living water welling up within him (cf. Jn 4:14).

We must rediscover a taste for feeding ourselves on the word of God, faithfully handed down by the Church, and on the bread of life, offered as sustenance for his disciples (cf. Jn 6:51).

Indeed, the teaching of Jesus still resounds in our day with the same power: “Do not labour for the food which perishes, but for the food which endures to eternal life” (Jn 6:27).

The question posed by his listeners is the same that we ask today: “What must we do, to be doing the works of God?” (Jn 6:28). We know Jesus’ reply: “This is the work of God, that you believe in him whom he has sent” (Jn 6:29).

Belief in Jesus Christ, then, is the way to arrive DEFINITIVELY at salvation. End quote. Emphasis added.

Continue

 

[LatinRight]

Continuation

DEI VERBUM 21

Quote: CATHOLIC SENSIBILITY, DEI VERBUM 21

The Church has always VENERATED the divine Scriptures JUST AS she VENERATED the body of the Lord, since, especially in the sacred liturgy, she unceasingly receives and offers to the faithful THE BREAD OF LIFE from the table of BOTH of GOD’S WORD and of CHRIST’S BODY.

For in the sacred books, the Father who is in heaven meets His children with great love and speaks with them; and THE FORCE AND POWER IN THE WORD OF GOD IS SO GREAT THAT IT IS STANDS AS THE SUPPORT AND ENERGY OF THE CHURCH, THE STRINGS OF FAITH for Her (children), THE FOOD OF THE SOUL, THE PURE AND EVERLASTING SOURCE OF SPIRITUAL LIFE.

“For the WORD OF GOD IS LIVING AND ACTIVE” (Hebr.4:12) and it **HAS THE POWER TO BUILD YOU UP and give you your heritage among all those who are sanctified. (Acts 20:32) ** End quote.

When in faith, we are READING or HEARING the Word of God we consuming the BREAD OF LIFE, in which He (Jesus), Himself is consumed and we unite ourselves to Christ.

The Catholic Understanding of the Bible by Fr. John Harden SJ.
Quote: “The Scriptures are holy because their main author is the all-holy God. But they are also holy because they are able to sanctify those who READ the Bible as NO OTHER LITERATURE in the world is capable of doing.

**St. Thomas does not hesitate to speak of the Scriptures as a KIND OF SACRAMENT.

SIMULAR to what happens when we receive BAPTISM or the EUCHARIST.**

The same Holy Spirit who first inspired the Bible CONTINUES TO ENLIGHTEN those who now READ the Bible.” End quote. Emphasize mine.

[CCC 108]; Still, the Christian faith is not a “religion of the book.”
Christianity is a religion of the “Word” of God, “not a written and mute word, but incarnate and living.”
If the Scriptures are not remain a dead letter, Christ, the eternal Word of the living God, must, through the Holy Spirit, “open [our] minds to understand the Scriptures.” End quote.

The Lamb’s Supper by Scott Hahn Page 48

Quote: One of the great Scripture scholars of the early church, Origen (third century), urged Christians TO RESPECT CHRIST’S PRESENTS IN THE GOSPEL as they RESPECT HIS PRESENCE IN THE HOST.

“You who are accustomed to take part in the divine mysteries know, when you receive the body of the Lord, how you protect it with all caution and veneration lest any small part fall from it, lest anything of the consecrated gift be lost.

For you believe, and correctly, that you are answerable if anything falls from there by neglect.

But if you are so careful to preserve His body, and rightly so, HOW DO YOU THINK THAT THERE IS LESS GUILT TO HAVE NEGLECTED GOD’S WORD THAT TO HAVE NEGLECTED HIS BODY?” End quote.

ACCORDING TO ST. JEROME

This famous excerpt from Jerome’s Commentary on Isaiah (Nn. 1.2: CCL 73, 1-3) is used in the Roman Office of Readings for the Feast (liturgical memorial) of St. Jerome on September 30.

In it, St. Jerome firmly insists that IGNORANCE OF THE SCRIPTURE IS IGNORANCE OF CHRIST. A strong exhortation from a Father and Doctor of the Catholic Church to Christians urging all to recognize that serious Bible study is a necessity, not an optional luxury. End quote.

SUMMARY

**Christ, the eternal Word of the living God, must, through the Holy Spirit, “open [our] minds to understand the Scriptures.” **

The same Holy Spirit who first inspired the Bible CONTINUES TO ENLIGHTEN those who now READ the Bible.”

Those who misinterpret the Bible is their own mistake because they don’t listen the voice and the interpretation of the Holy Spirit.

God bless.

LatinRight

 

[LatinRight]

I say this with all kindness Latin, this is where your answer is wrong. You can not give an answer using just 2 verses of the Bible. The words that you believe is the message of those 2 verses, and the words you are picking and choosing from articles you are reading.

Jimmy, as did Dr. Anders, made sure to clarify that a person can lose their salvation and that we can not know with 100% certainty that we are saved. You choose to ignore these words and even go so far as to say they are not feeding us with “real” spiritual truth. That is a bold claim to make.

God Bless Latin

**God bless MT and every readers of the CAF,
**

I don’t place my salvation only on two Bible verses.

I placed my salvation on Christ finished work on the cross, my faith is in Christ and in the Word of God for my salvation.

I also believe the teachings of the Catholic Church on Predestination, The Book of Life, God’s special grace “The Gift of Final Perseverance,” Conditions of Supernatural Merit, etc. etc.

**AN OVERVIEW OF SALVATION

THE BOOK OF LIFE**

God has completed the Book of Life before the foundation of the world by taking out the names of the reprobates from the Book of Life for their vehement rejection of God and His grace, for their rejection they all predestined to hell before the foundation of the world end they all end up in hell.

From the completion, the Book of life admits NEITHER ADDITIONS no ERASURES.

Some people can be confused about the Book of Life, because God has completed the Book of Life in His “chronological order” before the foundation of the world, but in the Bible concerning the events in the Book of Life, for our understanding, written in our chronological order, like the cancellation from the Book of Life done at our present time, this is not the case.

This fact can cause confusion, because someone may wrongly conclude; God’s child/elect can lose salvation, which is a theological impossibility.

Only the names of God’s elect stands written in the Book of life.
God predestined every of his elect to Heaven.

At baptism God has given every of His elect His Gift of Everlasting Life and His special grace The Gift of Final Perseverance as an Eternal Assurance of their Salvation/Everlasting Life. – They cannot lose their Salvation/Everlasting Life.

Every reprobate for their vehement rejection of God and His grace Predestined to hell before the foundation of the world.

Concerning the Book of Life, this is the above two groups of people in the world and every member of the entire human race belongs one of the two group.

**THERE ARE TWO PREDESTINATION IN CATHOLIC THEOLOGY **

The predestination of every elect to heaven/Glory.

The predestination some reprobates to Grace, who are already predestined to hell before the foundation of the world.

The contents of the memory and the will of the “Elect-Christians” and the “Reprobate-Christians” are FUNDAMENTALLY and ABSOLUTELY different.

a. The memory and the will of the elect contains the desire to go to heaven, to have everlasting life with God in heaven and to persevere to the end of life.

b. The memory and the will of the “Reprobate-Christians” not contains the desire to go to heaven, or to have everlasting life in heaven with God, or to persevere to the end of life.

In strict theology we cannot even say they are real Christians even they have a kind of faith, and a kind of salvation because their faith excludes the desire to go to heaven, to have everlasting life in heaven with God or to persevere to the end of their life.

They are kind of a spectator or reprobate-Christians in the Church who are coming and going in the Church.

Every warnings in the Bible which referring to cut off, lose salvation written for their benefit.

Could not written for the benefit if the elect as they can never lose their salvation.

There is a strict dividing line between the contents of the memory and the will of the elect-Christians and the reprobate-Christians.

If someone want to find out he is an elect-Christian or a reprobate-Christian only need to know the contents of his memory and will.

If someone has a strong desire and will to go to heaven, to have everlasting life in heaven with God, and to persevere to the end of life that person CAN NOT be a reprobate-Christian.

**ST. AUGUSTINE ON GRACE AND PREDESTINATION

De gratia Christi 25, 26: **
“For not only has God given us our ability and helps it, but He even works [brings about] willing and acting in us; not that we do not will or that we do not act, but that without His help we neither will anything good nor do it.”

**De gratia et libero arbitrio 16, 32: **
“It is certain that we will when we will; but He brings it about that we will good. . . . It is certain that we act when we act, but He brings it about that we act, PROVIDING MOST EFFECTIVE POWERS TO THE WILL.”

Fhil.2:13; “For it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure.”

Every elect-Christian at baptism is a receiver of God’s gift of Everlasting Life and God’s gift of special grace The Gift of Final Perseverance, which is an Eternal Assurance of the Salvation/Everlasting Life of every elect.

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[LatinRight]

Continuation

**SUMMARY

IN THEOLOGY **
There are two predestination, one for the elect to heaven/glory, and the other for some of the reprobates to grace.

IN REALITY IN THE CHURCH
There are elect-Christians and reprobate-Christians in the Church mixed together.

We have to treat everyone in the Church as an elect-Christian.

According to the above facts in reality, there is elect-Christianity made up with the elect and reprobate-Christianity made up with the reprobates.

This is two totally different Christianity made up with two totally different Christians.

For the purity of the Gospel and for our understanding we MUST treat these two Christianity and two kind of Christians IN THEOLOGY strictly separate, otherwise it causes the greatest confusion among the Christians in particular among those elect who are not familiar with the two predestination/practically two DIFFERENT Christianity in Catholic theology.

FOR EXAMPLE
When a Catholic teacher teaching a Christian can be cut off or can lose salvation SHOULD MAKE IT CLEAR!!! he is speaking about reprobate-Christianity and reprobate-Christians (who are already predestined to hell before the foundation of the world), because not every elect familiar with the two predestination in Catholic theology and can cause confusion and an elect mistakenly believe that he can lose salvation.

This confusion can be very disastrous for an elect, because God have been put into the memory and will of every elect the strong desire to go to heaven, have everlasting life in heaven with God, has the desire to persevere to the end of life. – Of course God Eternally Assured the salvation of every elect, but not every elect know that.

Unfortunately some Catholic teachers obsessed to teach reprobate-Christianity, that reprobate-Christians can lose their salvation without making it clear that they speaking about reprobate-Christians who are already predestined to hell before the foundation of the world and with that NEGLECT!!! they put the fear on many elect and put many elect into a paralyzed state and we surprised that our great commission (Matt.28:19-20) became our great omission.

We also wondering, what is the reason that the Catholic people flocking to the Protestant Churches and the members of many Protestant Churches 40 % - 70 % are ex Catholics.

When we will stop teaching reprobate-Christianity and we will stop presenting it as elect-Christianity and we start to teach real elect-Christianity and we let the elect to know who they are, that will liberates the soul of the elect from the fear and paralyzed state and probably the exodus will stop from our Catholic Church and our great omission will become our great commission again.

God bless MT and every reader of the CAF.

LatinRight

 

[LatinRight]

Although we cannot earn God’s unmerited favor by our good works, we can reject his love by our sins or by not loving our neighbor (that is, by our evil works) and thereby lose the eternal life he freely offers us in Christ. Which goes back to my earlier point part of belief is having works that are more than straw.

Matthew 24:13 But the one who endures to the end will be saved.

Part of belief is believing until the day you die. We can not know something major might happen in our life that would make us turn away from God.

Here’s another good article that goes into the assurance of salvation topic for you to read.

catholic.com/tract/assurance-of-salvation

God Bless

God bless MT and every reader of the CAF,

**Thank you for your post.

You dealing with several issues in your above post.**

1. We can lose our salvation.
2. If all our works at the judgment (1 Cor.3:12-15) rejected by God because all our works are wood, hay and straw we will end up in hell.
3. The one who endures to the end will be saved.
4. We must believing until the day we die.
5. We may lose our eternal life.
6. The suggested article to study the assurance-of-salvation.

YOUR ISSUES MT ONE BY ONE

1. We can lose our salvation.

If we are among God’s elect, we cannot lose our salvation.
If we are among the reprobates we already predestined to hell before the foundation of the world.

2. If all our works at the judgment (1 Cor.3:12-15) rejected by God because all our works are wood, hay and straw we will end up in hell.

1 Cor.3:15;
If it is burned up, the builder will suffer loss but yet will be saved—even though only as one escaping through the flames.

3. The one who endures to the end will be saved.

Addressed to Reprobate-Christianity, to reprobate-Christians.
An elect of God always endures and can never lose salvation. – DE FIDE Dogma.

4. We must believing until the day we die.

As elect of God we all believing until the day we die, for us there is NO OTHER WAY. – DE FIDE Dogma.

5. We can lose our eternal life.

As elect of God, at our baptism we have received God’s free gift of Formed Faith, God’s free gift of Eternal Life, God’s free special grace The Gift of Final Perseverance, which is an Eternal Assurance that we NEVER LOSE God’s gift of Formed Faith and God’s gift of Eternal Life. - DE FIDE Dogma, John 5:24; 1 John 5:13; Rom.8:29-30; Rom.6:23b; etc.

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[LatinRight]

Continuation

6. The suggested article to study the assurance-of-salvation.

Quote: Sometimes Fundamentalists portray Catholics as if they must every moment be in terror of losing their salvation since Catholics recognize that it is possible to lose salvation through mortal sin.** Fundamentalists then hold out the idea that, rather than living every moment in terror,** they can have a calm, assured knowledge that they will, in fact, be saved, and that nothing will ever be able to change this fact. End quote.

ABOUT THE ABOVE EXCERPT

First:
It is NOT POSSIBLE for an elect to lose Salvation/Everlasting Life through mortal sin because the Salvation/Eternal Life of every elect from baptism Eternally Assured/Protected by God’s special grace The Gift of Final Perseverance. – Nothing will ever be able to change this fact. DE FIDE Dogma, John 5:24; 1 John 5:13; Rom.6:23b; etc.

Those who can and will lose salvation are already predestined to hell for their vehement rejection of God and His grace before the foundation of the world.

They are NOT THE SAME CHRISTIANS then God’s elect.

Their memory and will DO NOT CONTAIN the desire to go to heaven, to have everlasting life in heaven with God or to persevere to the end.

From the two predestinations in Catholic Theology technically follows the two Christianity.

The Elect-Christianity made up with the elect and the Reprobate-Christianity made up with the reprobates.

The elect predestined to heaven before the foundation of the world and the reprobates predestined to hell before the foundation of the world as well.

The differences between the two Christianity is like the differences between heaven and hell, if we mix the two together like we mix together heaven and hell.

This is exactly some irresponsible Catholic teachers doing (mixing together heaven and hell) and as the results, our great commission became our great omission and our Catholic people flocking to the Protestant Churches and the members of many Protestant Churches 40 % - 70 % are ex Catholics.

From whatever angle we look, these irresponsible Catholic teachers doing the Protestants the BIG FAVOUR!!!

Second:
There is only one predestination in Protestant Theology, which is identical with the Catholic DE FIDE Dogma, Predestination of the elect.

So anyone saved, in Protestant Theology he is an elect and same as in Catholic Theology cannot lose Salvation/Everlasting Life.

God bless MT and every readers of the CAF.

LatinRight

 

[MT1926]

God bless MT and every member of the CAF,

2 Cor.13:5-6;

Quote: “Examine yourselves, to see whether you are holding to your faith.

TEST YOURSELVES.

Do you not realize that Jesus Christ is in you? – unless indeed you fail to meet the test!

I hope YOU WILL FIND OUT that we have not failed.” End quote.

BUT and there is a VERY BIG BUT, if 2 Cor.13:5-6 means, we must know the test result at the time we do the test now, then everything you have written in your posts that we cannot know the test result now, we have to wait to know the test result until we die, than all your reasoning comes down like the house of cards.

So it is no question, according to God’s COMMAND in 2 Cor.13:5-6, we MUST do the test RIGHT NOW, the question is:

Should we know the test result now at the time we do the test, or do we have to wait to know the test result after we die?

God bless.

LatinRight

Latin sorry for the late response. I never got an email that you responded. I just checked in to see what happened and found your response.

I am starting to understand where you are coming from and I believe you are reading to much into this verse which is why you disagree with my response.

First let me point out that I am not saying you can not test yourself. Sure you can test yourself just like this verse says. However, this is the infallible objective certainty that Dr. Anders is speaking of.

Just read the first sentence. It says to see whether you are holding. This is present tense. St. Paul is saying test to see if today at this very second if you are holding to the faith. He doesn’t say test yourself to see if you have held, meaning you are done. When he says “Test yourself” he means everyday, not just one time. No where does he come to a conclusion that once you pass the test you could not fail the test at a later date.

There is no way to no today, with infallible certainty, that you will not turn from Christ in the future.

Like I said several times, yes I agree there are those predestined, however there is no way to know that we are one of them.

God Bless

 

[MT1926]

God bless MT and every reader of the CAF,

**Supernatural work is: **

Doing something, DECIDED FREELY without the fear of hell,

**work done **NOT BECAUSE IT WILL HELP US SOMEHOW,

**but because **we want to do it out of SHEER LOVE for the Glory of God, or help other person out of sheer love.

This I am on board with and have no objections to these definitions.

**SUPERNATURAL WORKS / MERIT FOR SUPERNATURAL WORKS

An example:**

There are two elect of God working together, doing the EXACT SAME works.

Elect a, knows salvation is by Grace alone, Faith alone, he is Justified apart from works, all his works done by decided freely without the fear of hell.
ALL HIS WORKS done out of love for the Glory of God and out of love for others.

Elect b, believes his** salvation is by Faith + Works,** he is working in all his life.
ALL HIS WORKS done to achieve his salvation before he dies.

Elect a, and Elect b, working together, doing exactly the same Christian works.

Elect a, stands before the judgment seat of 1 Cor.3:12-15.
All his works are gold, silver, precious stones, he enters into heaven with lot of rewards.

His glory and position in heaven determined by God according to the outcome of the judgment of his works.

Elect b, stands before the judgment seat of 1 Cor.3:12-15.
All his life works done to achieve his salvation before he dies.

All his life works are wood, hay and straw, rejected by God and all his life works goes up in smoke at the judgment of his works.

He enters heaven by Grace alone, Faith alone, because all his life works went up in smoke at the judgment of his works.

This I do not agree with. Your example here is illogical.

Matthew 6:24 “No one can serve two masters; for either he will hate the one and love the other, or he will be devoted to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve God and mammon.[a]

If person B is only “working in all his life.
ALL HIS WORKS done to achieve his salvation before he dies.”

Then he is serving himself not God. There is no way he could be among the elect.

You have come up with this example to convince yourself of the following.

I guess, sooner a later we all have to learn:
Our salvation is by Grace alone, Faith alone, we have been justified apart from our works.

This is not Catholic teaching. We are not saved by Faith alone. We are saved by God’s Grace through faith and works.

Here’s a comment from Tim Staples that I kept in my Notebook.

The Catholic Church teaches there are no works anyone can perform to merit the initial grace of salvation that comes to us through faith and baptism (Mark 16:16; Romans 6:3-4; Eph. 2:8-9).

To attempt to be saved before entering into Christ is futile. In John 15:5, Jesus said, “Apart from me you can do nothing.” We believe that as Catholics.

In fact, Gal. 5:1-6, 6:7-9, Eph. 2:10, James 2:24, Matt. 12:37, John 15:1-6 etc. teach us that once we enter into Christ we must then begin to “work out our salvation with fear and trembling” (Phil. 2:10) in order for us to remain in Christ and in order for us to finally be rewarded with final salvation if we are faithful unto death (Romans 2:6-7; Gal. 6:7-9; Matt. 25:31-46; Matt. 10:22; Rev. 2:10, etc.).

All of this requires us to cooperate with God’s grace in our lives.

So yes, we are justified by faith as Scripture teaches. But we are not justified by faith alone, if by that you mean our cooperation with grace has no part to play in our salvation (or our “works” done in Christ - see Romans 11:22) because that directly contradicts Scripture (James 2:24, etc.).

You claim we Catholics are claiming we have “some power to justify ourselves - in other words, [we Catholics] are boasting, as [Romans 3:]27 states.” That is not true.

MT you should be happy for and learn the Catholic Church teachings on the elect and reprobates because that knowledge gives you the understanding of salvation.

Latin I have learned so much more than I ever new about the elect and reprobates. But the most important thing I have learned is there is no way we can know we are among the elect. This is something that you need to pray about and come to terms with. This is not a scary thought. I don’t need to know now whether I am among the elect or not. The only thing I need to know is that Jesus loves me and He is a Just Judge. I also love Him, so that love for Him also includes accepting whatever judgement He gives me.

God Bless

 

[MT1926]

Now about your spiritual life MT:

I don’t believe MT that Benedict XVI and the Catholic Church agree with your above statement/decision that you, instead of Christ and His Word you placing your trust and your salvation into the words of fallible humans.

I agree we need great teachers whose teachings like good wells, comes out living waters builds up our faith, liberate our souls.

But we better without those teachers whose teachings like bad wells, comes out dead waters, the destruction of our faith, fear and enslavement of our souls.

I don’t understand what you are saying here? What did I say that they don’t agree with. Since you converted to the Catholic faith maybe you could explain this to me. No protest ever has and actually refuses to.

How can you ever be sure with 100% infallible certainty that you are placing your salvation in Christ and His Word, when you are the one interpreting His Word?

Aren’t you and for that matter me, as well, one of those “fallible humans” that you say we shouldn’t trust our salvation with?

You say we do need good teachers but some teachers are like bad wells. How do you know you aren’t one of those bad wells? If you are doing the interpreting and you are the judge of your teachings then how do you know if your teachings align with what Jesus wanted from the beginning?

OF THE SUPREME PONTIFF BENEDICT XVI PORTA FIDEI

Quote: We cannot accept that salt should become tasteless or the light be kept hidden (cf. Mt 5:13-16). The people of today can still experience the need to go to the well, like the Samaritan woman, in order to hear Jesus, who invites us to believe in him and to draw upon the source of living water welling up within him (cf. Jn 4:14).

We must rediscover a taste for feeding ourselves on the word of God, faithfully handed down by the Church, and on the bread of life, offered as sustenance for his disciples (cf. Jn 6:51).

Indeed, the teaching of Jesus still resounds in our day with the same power: “Do not labour for the food which perishes, but for the food which endures to eternal life” (Jn 6:27).

The question posed by his listeners is the same that we ask today: “What must we do, to be doing the works of God?” (Jn 6:28). We know Jesus’ reply: “This is the work of God, that you believe in him whom he has sent” (Jn 6:29).

Belief in Jesus Christ, then, is the way to arrive DEFINITIVELY at salvation. End quote. Emphasis added.

Continue

I agree with what you wrote here, but you must understand that what is written all balances on this one statement…

faithfully handed down by the Church

Yes we need to read the Bible and feed ourselves, but we are to feed ourselves based on the teachings of the Church not on our own fallible interpretations.

God Bless

 

[MT1926]

[CCC 108]; Still, the Christian faith is not a “religion of the book.”
Christianity is a religion of the “Word” of God, “not a written and mute word, but incarnate and living.”
If the Scriptures are not remain a dead letter, Christ, the eternal Word of the living God, must, through the Holy Spirit, “open [our] minds to understand the Scriptures.” End quote.

I’m not sure what you see when you read this but what jumps at me is the first verse.

the Christian faith is not a “religion of the book.”

This to me means we aren’t to take the Bible and come to our own conclusions, because the Word of God can not be contained in a book. The Word of God has to be handed down and taught to the faithful.

The Lamb’s Supper by Scott Hahn Page 48

Quote: One of the great Scripture scholars of the early church, Origen (third century), urged Christians TO RESPECT CHRIST’S PRESENTS IN THE GOSPEL as they RESPECT HIS PRESENCE IN THE HOST.

“You who are accustomed to take part in the divine mysteries know, when you receive the body of the Lord, how you protect it with all caution and veneration lest any small part fall from it, lest anything of the consecrated gift be lost.

For you believe, and correctly, that you are answerable if anything falls from there by neglect.

But if you are so careful to preserve His body, and rightly so, HOW DO YOU THINK THAT THERE IS LESS GUILT TO HAVE NEGLECTED GOD’S WORD THAT TO HAVE NEGLECTED HIS BODY?” End quote.

When I read this I see a comparison between the Eucharist and how important it is to not only protect the host but to protect the smallest part of the host as well. This leads me to interpret your final statement in this light. My understanding here would be we need to understand God’s entire word. To take one or 2 verses and say see this is what is being taught is what it means to NEGLECT GOD"S WORD. This is why it is so important to follow the handed down teachings of the Catholic Church.

ACCORDING TO ST. JEROME

This famous excerpt from Jerome’s Commentary on Isaiah (Nn. 1.2: CCL 73, 1-3) is used in the Roman Office of Readings for the Feast (liturgical memorial) of St. Jerome on September 30.

In it, St. Jerome firmly insists that IGNORANCE OF THE SCRIPTURE IS IGNORANCE OF CHRIST. A strong exhortation from a Father and Doctor of the Catholic Church to Christians urging all to recognize that serious Bible study is a necessity, not an optional luxury. End quote.

SUMMARY

**Christ, the eternal Word of the living God, must, through the Holy Spirit, “open [our] minds to understand the Scriptures.” **

The same Holy Spirit who first inspired the Bible CONTINUES TO ENLIGHTEN those who now READ the Bible.”

Those who misinterpret the Bible is their own mistake because they don’t listen the voice and the interpretation of the Holy Spirit.

God bless.

LatinRight

This sounds very Protestant and is not Catholic teaching.

How can you ever know with 100% infallible certainty that you are listening to the Holy Spirit and not your own mind?

Jesus left me an authority, in the Catholic Church. He loves me to much to leave me on my own trying to figure it out for myself.

God Bless

 

[LatinRight]

Latin sorry for the late response. I never got an email that you responded. I just checked in to see what happened and found your response.

I am starting to understand where you are coming from and I believe you are reading to much into this verse which is why you disagree with my response.

First let me point out that I am not saying you can not test yourself. Sure you can test yourself just like this verse says. However, this is the infallible objective certainty that Dr. Anders is speaking of.

Just read the first sentence. It says to see whether you are holding. This is present tense. St. Paul is saying test to see if today at this very second if you are holding to the faith. He doesn’t say test yourself to see if you have held, meaning you are done. When he says “Test yourself” he means everyday, not just one time. No where does he come to a conclusion that once you pass the test you could not fail the test at a later date.

There is no way to no today, with infallible certainty, that you will not turn from Christ in the future.

Like I said several times, yes I agree there are those predestined, however there is no way to know that we are one of them.

God Bless

God bless MT and every readers of the CAF,

I’m sorry about the email.
I have changed my computer and probably my computer’s fault you didn’t get email, I didn’t get either, I noticed other changes as well.

It seems like we just have to see our answers in the CAF.

I always answer your emails and I always learn from your posts even I’m not always agree with some of it.

SHOULD WE DO THE TEST EVERY DAY WHO WE ARE AS YOU MT SUGGESTED?

The answer of the teachings of the Catholic Church:

One successful test is enough for lifetime, because the salvation of every children/elect of God is Eternally Assured/Protected by God’s special grace The Gift of Final Perseverance.

God’s election is forever!!! – If you have it once MT you have it forever!!!

**Can God’s children/elect know they are God’s children/elect?

God’s REPEATED ANSWERS of the above question: **

**Rom.8:14; **
“For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God.”

**Rom.8:16; **
“The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God.”

John 5:24;
“Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My Word and believes in Him who sent me has EVERLASTING LIFE, and shall NOT COME INTO JUDGMENT, but has PASSED from death into LIFE.”

(As elect we will stand before the judgment seat but only our works will be judged for reward or no reward, our salvation is not at stake.)

1 John 5:13;
“I write this to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that YOU MAY KNOW THAT YOU HAVE ETERNAL LIFE.”

Eph.2:1;
“And you he made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins.”

Do you believe MT you are still dead in trespasses and sins or alive in Christ Jesus? – One or the other, there is no middle ground.

Eph.2:8-9;
“For by grace you have been saved through faith, …”

Just as no one can be half way in Christ, the same way no one can be saved half way.

In Christ we have been saved/elect, outside Christ we are condemned (if we stay forever outside Christ we are reprobates, predestined to hell before the foundation of the world)!!!

Where are you MT, in Christ and saved/elect or outside Christ in a condemned state and you are not a Catholic?

There is no between position, so you must know your present standing, one or the other!!!

So which one MT from the two possibility???

If you say I don’t know, that means according to Eph.2:8 you have no faith in the word of God you are not in Christ, meaning you are in the condemned state.

If you die right now you know where would you go.

Do you think MT less then 100 % faith qualifies you to be in Christ???

To tell the truth, I don’t believe less then 100 % faith would qualify me to be in Christ or to be saved.

I certainly don’t let anyone to destroy my faith which is God’s gift.

Continue

 

[LatinRight]

Continuation

THERE ARE TWO CHRISTIANITY IN CATHOLIC THEOLOGY THE ELECT AND THE REPROBATE CHRISTIANITY

The contents of the memory and the will of the “Elect-Christians” and the “Reprobate-Christians” are FUNDAMENTALLY and ABSOLUTELY different.

a. The memory and the will of the elect contain the desire to go to heaven, to have everlasting life with God in heaven and to persevere to the end of life.

b. The memory and the will of the “Reprobate-Christians” not contains the desire to go to heaven, or to have everlasting life in heaven with God, or to persevere to the end of life.

MT do you have a strong desire to go to heaven, do you have a strong desire to have everlasting life with God in heaven, do you have a strong desire to persevere until the end of your life?

If yes, you have those strong desire because God put them into your memory and will and I can prove it as follows with Catholic teachings.

**ST. AUGUSTINE ON GRACE AND PREDESTINATION

De gratia Christi 25, 26: **
“For not only has God given us our ability and helps it, but He even works [brings about] willing and acting in us; not that we do not will or that we do not act, but that without His help we neither will anything good nor do it.”

**De gratia et libero arbitrio 16, 32: **
“It is certain that we will when we will; but He brings it about that we will good. . . . It is certain that we act when we act, but He brings it about that we act, PROVIDING MOST EFFECTIVE POWERS TO THE WILL.”

Fhil.2:13; “For it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure.”

Every elect-Christian at baptism is a receiver of God’s gift of Everlasting Life and God’s gift of special grace The Gift of Final Perseverance, which is an Eternal Assurance of the Salvation/Everlasting Life of every elect.

**In 2 Cor.13:5-6 God has given us a COMMAND and we MUST obey it! **

2 Cor.13:5-6;
Quote: Examine yourselves, to see whether you are holding to your faith.

TEST YOURSELVES.

Do you not realize that Jesus Christ is in you? – unless indeed you fail to meet the test!

I hope YOU WILL FIND OUT that we have not failed. End quote

To know the test result, we need to know, do we believe the Word of God and do we believe in the name of the Son of God?

Do we have a strong desire to go to heaven, do we have a strong desire to have everlasting life with God in heaven, do we have a strong desire to persevere until the end of our life?

And if our answers are yes to both questions then the test is done, and we KNOW we are God’s children/elect and we have God’s GIFT OF IRON STRONG FAITH to believe it RIGHT NOW not when we wake up in hell for lack of faith!!!

The COMMAND TO DO THE TEST is because God cares for us, including our faith, our peace and our mental health.

To doubt is the greatest insult to the Divinity. [St Padre Pio]

God bless.

LatinRight

 

[MT1926]

**God bless MT and every readers of the CAF,
**

I don’t place my salvation only on two Bible verses.

I placed my salvation on Christ finished work on the cross, my faith is in Christ and in the Word of God for my salvation.

I also believe the teachings of the Catholic Church on Predestination, The Book of Life, God’s special grace “The Gift of Final Perseverance,” Conditions of Supernatural Merit, etc. etc.

You say you place your salvation in the Word of God.

I ask who is doing the interpretation of this Word? If it is you then you are placing your trust in you.

In strict theology we cannot even say they are real Christians even they have a kind of faith, and a kind of salvation because their faith excludes the desire to go to heaven, to have everlasting life in heaven with God or to persevere to the end of their life.

They are kind of a spectator or reprobate-Christians in the Church who are coming and going in the Church.

Not sure where this comes from, but this to is impossible for us to judge. We can not see someone’s heart therefore we can not judge. Quite often we can not even see our own hearts and have no way of judging if we are among this group.

If someone want to find out he is an elect-Christian or a reprobate-Christian only need to know the contents of his memory and will.

If someone has a strong desire and will to go to heaven, to have everlasting life in heaven with God, and to persevere to the end of life that person CAN NOT be a reprobate-Christian.

You keep highlighting the parts of these statements that you want to be true. What you keep ignoring is the entire statement hinges on the words “persevere to the end of life”. Since we have no way of knowing if we will persevere we can not know today if we are among the elect.

God Bless

 

[MT1926]

For the purity of the Gospel and for our understanding we MUST treat these two Christianity and two kind of Christians IN THEOLOGY strictly separate, otherwise it causes the greatest confusion among the Christians in particular among those elect who are not familiar with the two predestination/practically two DIFFERENT Christianity in Catholic theology.

FOR EXAMPLE
When a Catholic teacher teaching a Christian can be cut off or can lose salvation SHOULD MAKE IT CLEAR!!! he is speaking about reprobate-Christianity and reprobate-Christians (who are already predestined to hell before the foundation of the world), because not every elect familiar with the two predestination in Catholic theology and can cause confusion and an elect mistakenly believe that he can lose salvation.

This confusion can be very disastrous for an elect, because God have been put into the memory and will of every elect the strong desire to go to heaven, have everlasting life in heaven with God, has the desire to persevere to the end of life. – Of course God Eternally Assured the salvation of every elect, but not every elect know that.

Unfortunately some Catholic teachers obsessed to teach reprobate-Christianity, that reprobate-Christians can lose their salvation without making it clear that they speaking about reprobate-Christians who are already predestined to hell before the foundation of the world and with that NEGLECT!!! they put the fear on many elect and put many elect into a paralyzed state and we surprised that our great commission (Matt.28:19-20) became our great omission.

None of this makes any sense.

Where did you get this???

Why would you teach either of these???

Wouldn’t it make more sense to teach the truth and the Love of God?

I have a Doctorate Degree and can’t follow what you are trying to teach. How on earth are a bunch of 5th graders going to understand any of this?

The entire elect/reprobate makes God look like an evil dictator who saves or damns whoever He pleases. That is why this isn’t front page teaching in the Catholic Church.

We also wondering, what is the reason that the Catholic people flocking to the Protestant Churches and the members of many Protestant Churches 40 % - 70 % are ex Catholics.

Nope not wondering. Catholics flock to Protestant Churches because they want what is easy. They want that false sense of security. They are bored in the Catholic Church because they don’t believe faith is about worshiping God and doing what He wants. They believe is should be about feelings and an emotion and having fun. They go there because this generation can not submit themselves to authority.

When we will stop teaching reprobate-Christianity and we will stop presenting it as elect-Christianity and we start to teach real elect-Christianity and we let the elect to know who they are, that will liberates the soul of the elect from the fear and paralyzed state and probably the exodus will stop from our Catholic Church and our great omission will become our great commission again.

I mean this with all Love and kindness, I think you are the only one in this conversation that is in fear and a paralyzing state about your salvation.

This is the reason you have to constantly post your views on the elect. I have asked you to stop posting about the elect on several occasions, because I have no problem with their being an elect. The only problem I have is we can not have 100% certainty that we are one of them. However, you continue to post this over and over again, I believe you do this not to convince me but because you are trying to convince yourself that you are right. However, deep down you know that there is absolutely no way any of us can know if we will persevere to the end.

God Bless

 

[MT1926]

God bless MT and every readers of the CAF,

SHOULD WE DO THE TEST EVERY DAY WHO WE ARE AS YOU MT SUGGESTED?

The answer of the teachings of the Catholic Church:

One successful test is enough for lifetime, because the salvation of every children/elect of God is Eternally Assured/Protected by God’s special grace The Gift of Final Perseverance.

God’s election is forever!!! – If you have it once MT you have it forever!!!

You can’t just say this is the teaching. Point me to where it is taught specifically. You are just stringing together your interpretations ans saying this is the teaching.

**Can God’s children/elect know they are God’s children/elect?

God’s REPEATED ANSWERS of the above question: **

**Rom.8:14; **
“For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God.”

**Rom.8:16; **
“The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God.”

These 2 verses are dependent on the surrounding verses…

Before we get to verse 14 we read verse 13…for if you live according to the flesh you will die, but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body you will live.

Verse 14 is contingent on the “IF” of verse 13. This is not a one time “IF”. So “IF” today you put to death the deeds of the body you are a son of God. However, “IF” 20 years from now you live according to the flesh then you are no longer a son of God.

Verse 16 does not end with a period like you wrote it. It continues into verse 17 as one complete statement…and if children, then heirs, heirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ, provided we suffer with him in order that we may also be glorified with him.

There’s that “IF” again. Verse 16 is also dependent on the “IF” criteria of verse 13. We also have a stipulation in this verse “provided we suffer with him”. I would consider suffering with Jesus a good work that doesn’t burn up in the fire. Finally, the end of this verse say “WE MAY”. This is a present tense verb mean to express possibility.

I see no guarantees of salvation in these verses, only possibilities.

John 5:24;
“Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My Word and believes in Him who sent me has EVERLASTING LIFE, and shall NOT COME INTO JUDGMENT, but has PASSED from death into LIFE.”

(As elect we will stand before the judgment seat but only our works will be judged for reward or no reward, our salvation is not at stake.)

I think you are pulling to much out of this verse. First read the entire Chapter. This chapter begins with Jesus healing on the Sabbath. It is speaking of old covenant laws and why the Jews persecuted Jesus. The Chapter goes on towards your verse not to talk about our salvation but to talk about Jesus Authority. In these verses the context is His authority not our final salvation. The verse you speak of signifies a spiritual transfer from the curse of the Old Covenant laws to the blessings of the New Covenant. When Jesus is saying “eternal life” he is telling us believers are rescued from the fallen family of Adam and reinstated in the divine family of God. Not that we are guaranteed salvation. When he says does not come into judgement he is referring to judgement of the Old Covenant not our final judgement.

Also, read down to verse 29. If our works will not be judged for our salvation why does Jesus say “and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of judgment.”

Is doing evil the same as doing bad works?

1 John 5:13;
“I write this to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that YOU MAY KNOW THAT YOU HAVE ETERNAL LIFE.”

I don’t believe John is giving us any kind of guarantee here. He already set the rules for what he means by eternal life in this letter.

1 John 3:14 We know that we have passed out of death into life, because we love the brethren. He who does not love remains in death. 15 Any** one who hates** his brother** is a murderer**, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him.

Love = Good Work = Gold
Hate = Bad Work = Straw

Also, read all of Chapter 5

3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments.

We have to keep the commandments, not just have faith in them. This is a Good Work.

The only assurance John is giving his readers is that they possess Christ, not that they will persevere in His grace to the end. He points out that the danger still exists that we can fall into deadly sin…

16 If any one sees his brother committing what is not a mortal sin, he will ask, and God** will give him life for those whose sin is not mortal. There is sin which is mortal; I do not say that one is to pray for that. 17 All wrongdoing is sin, but there is sin which is not mortal.

Continue…**