Trent Horn - Does it matter which Christian denomination you belong to?

[PRmerger]

I did? Don’t think so.

Are these not your words?

And I would say one leaving a P church is theologically wrong with the church they leave also. So just as anyone who leaves Catholicism is wrong by her, so is anyone leaving a Baptist church wrong by said church.

 

[JMM1957]

I did? Don’t think so.

Yes ben, this is what you said. The church, P or CC would consider said person to be wrong in leaving. And if you try to say that the person has the right to leave if they choose, then you are correct, they do, but the Church would see it as wrong. So then, was Luther right or wrong about leaving?

 

[JMM1957]

Maybe they were wrong to leave but the Church was wrong in what she was promoting.

Exactly what was it that “she was promoting?” And was Luther justified in leaving and starting another church because of it?

 

[benhur]

Are these not your words?

Hi PR,

Sorry we misunderstand. One should include the post where it began. The word “only” was there, as in wrong only to the church that was left. I am not saying it was wrong for Luther to leave or say a Presbyterian leaving for a baptist church etc. So I am not saying it is wrong for a person to leave a church. I am saying it is thought to be wrong by the church being left

I may also add that the wrong is not so much the leaving of a church but that they leave in or because of belief in a wrong doctrine.

Hope that clarifies things.

Blessings

 

[benhur]

Yes ben, this is what you said. The church, P or CC would consider said person to be wrong in leaving. And if you try to say that the person has the right to leave if they choose, then you are correct, they do, but the Church would see it as wrong. So then, was Luther right or wrong about leaving?

Hi J,

Again, do not think I am being understood. I never meant nor wrote that it is wrong to leave a church over doctrine. That would be like you saying it is wrong for a Mormon to leave his church because they now believed Catholic doctrine,or for me if they became say Lutheran. As you noted, it is considered wrong by the church being left. That would be like me asking you if it was wrong for Manning to leave the Anglican Church to become a Catholic a century and a half ago.

That being said I would say we both think it ok for folks to join our respective churches and leaving behind any churches that we would consider to have doctrinal error or lacking the fullness of truth.

Blessings

 

[benhur]

Exactly what was it that “she was promoting?” And was Luther justified in leaving and starting another church because of it?

not sure I can answer that properly here and now. The reformation is another whole ball of wax.

Blessings

 

[PRmerger]

Hi PR,

Sorry we misunderstand. One should include the post where it began. The word “only” was there, as in wrong only to the church that was left. I am not saying it was wrong for Luther to leave or say a Presbyterian leaving for a baptist church etc. So I am not saying it is wrong for a person to leave a church. I am saying it is thought to be wrong by the church being left

I may also add that the wrong is not so much the leaving of a church but that they leave in or because of belief in a wrong doctrine.

Hope that clarifies things.

Blessings

Sorry, but that clarification is nonsense.

“It’s thought to be wrong in the eyes of the church he leaves”.

It’s wrong, in your eyes, for someone to leave a church over doctrine.

You believe it to be so.

It’s nonsense to say this nebulous, “It’s thought to be wrong”.

Abortion is also “thought to be wrong”.

So is adultery.

 

[estesbob]

Hi J,

Again, do not think I am being understood. I never meant nor wrote that it is wrong to leave a church over doctrine. That would be like you saying it is wrong for a Mormon to leave his church because they now believed Catholic doctrine,or for me if they became say Lutheran. As you noted, it is considered wrong by the church being left. That would be like me asking you if it was wrong for Manning to leave the Anglican Church to become a Catholic a century and a half ago.

That being said I would say we both think it ok for folks to join our respective churches and leaving behind any churches that we would consider to have doctrinal error or lacking the fullness of truth.

Blessings

So you think that God just leaves it all for us to figure out on our own? I mean that can be the only explanation for tens of thousands of different denominations .

 

[JMM1957]

Hi PR,

Sorry we misunderstand. One should include the post where it began. The word “only” was there, as in wrong only to the church that was left. I am not saying it was wrong for Luther to leave or say a Presbyterian leaving for a baptist church etc. So I am not saying it is wrong for a person to leave a church. I am saying it is thought to be wrong by the church being left

I may also add that the wrong is not so much the leaving of a church but that they leave in or because of belief in a wrong doctrine.

Hope that clarifies things.

Blessings

Ok ben, I understand the point you are making here. There’s lots of church shopping going on by some people, it may be looking for particular doctrines being taught, or for lesser reasons. Bottom line is, how do these people who leave a church for another, ever become convinced that what they are being taught to believe is a trustworthy Biblical teaching or not? All churches interpret Scripture their own way, and all claim to have the correct understanding, so what do we use to measure their individual correctness then?

 

[benhur]

“It’s thought to be wrong in the eyes of the church he leaves”.

It’s wrong, in your eyes, for someone to leave a church over doctrine.

Hi PR,

No, you are obfuscating my point and the word “only” .The CC and I are separate entities in this dialogue, hence “only” one entity sees it wrong , thinks it wrong , for Luther to have “left” the CC.

“My eyes” does not equate to all 30,001 churches where folks are departing or switching from.

Blessings.

 

[benhur]

Ok ben, I understand the point you are making here. There’s lots of church shopping going on by some people, it may be looking for particular doctrines being taught, or for lesser reasons. Bottom line is, how do these people who leave a church for another, ever become convinced that what they are being taught to believe is a trustworthy Biblical teaching or not? All churches interpret Scripture their own way, and all claim to have the correct understanding, so what do we use to measure their individual correctness then?

Hi JMMM,

Thank you for reading me properly.

Yes, that is an extension to the thread question , that if a brand of church matters, how do you decide which ? I know some would say if there were only one church brand ,there would be no need to decide and i would agree. However , that has not been the case since almost the beginning (within a generation ?).

I have answered that the decision is made in much the same way for everyone. It is a personal choice, a personal faith and revelation. That is, as coming to Christ are those things by grace and gifting ,so is His guiding into a congregation, even a brand of church. It is He ,the Good Shepherd ,that ultimately guides us to still waters and green pastures.

Blessings

 

[benhur]

So you think that God just leaves it all for us to figure out on our own?

Hi e,

"I will not leave you as orphans. I will send you the Comforter, the Holy Spirit, and He will not only be* with* you but in you "

We also have a sure foundation, the twelve apostolic foundations (Revelations) and the Chief Cornerstone, and all our forefathers on top of them, and we are “living stones” on top of them.

I mean that can be the only explanation for tens of thousands of different denominations

No, but I believe I have addressed some thoughts to this in previous posts.

Post #459: "Absolutely. Without freedom of choice and conscience and separation of church and state it would have been different in scale.(You have always had folks disagreeing and starting their own thing, beginning with Gnostics, Montanists, Arians etc…).

Blessings

 

[JMM1957]

Hi JMMM,

Thank you for reading me properly.

Yes, that is an extension to the thread question , that if a brand of church matters, how do you decide which ? I know some would say** if **there were only one church brand ,there would be no need to decide and i would agree. However , that has not been the case since almost the beginning (within a generation ?).

I have answered that the decision is made in much the same way for everyone. It is a personal choice, a personal faith and revelation. That is, as coming to Christ are those things by grace and gifting ,so is His guiding into a congregation, even a brand of church. It is He ,the Good Shepherd ,that ultimately guides us to still waters and green pastures.

Blessings

Actually ben, there was only one Church of Jesus Christ from the beginning, no if’s about it. And yes, there were already those present during Jesus’ time who questioned his teachings, some of which probably went on to be the first generation of false teachers talked about by other NT writers.

So, if you believe that Jesus established a Church founded on His teachings and commandments and authority, before his passion, death, resurrection, and ascension, and that authority to teach those same exact doctrines fell upon the first generation of Apostles, and that the Holy Spirit would guide them into all truth as promised, then wouldn’t that same exact Church still be with us today and be visible?

 

[estesbob]

Hi e,

"I will not leave you as orphans. I will send you the Comforter, the Holy Spirit, and He will not only be* with* you but in you "

We also have a sure foundation, the twelve apostolic foundations (Revelations) and the Chief Cornerstone, and all our forefathers on top of them, and we are “living stones” on top of them.
No, but I believe I have addressed some thoughts to this in previous posts.

Post #459: "Absolutely. Without freedom of choice and conscience and separation of church and state it would have been different in scale.(You have always had folks disagreeing and starting their own thing, beginning with Gnostics, Montanists, Arians etc…).

Blessings

Well it appears he has left a lot of orphans what with thousands of competing denominations and doctrines. How do we discern which is correct?

 

[JMM1957]

We also have a sure foundation, the twelve apostolic foundations (Revelations) and the Chief Cornerstone, and all our forefathers on top of them, and we are “living stones” on top of them.

And all, the twelve Apostle, the Chief Cornerstone, and our forefathers, they were all in agreement on doctrine, wouldn’t you say? So, if some churches build something different on that foundation, by choosing to go off and teach doctrines that are not in agreement with, or have a different understanding of Scripture, than the original foundational church did, are they on “sure” footing?

 

[PRmerger]

Hi PR,

No, you are obfuscating my point and the word “only” .The CC and I are separate entities in this dialogue, hence “only” one entity sees it wrong , thinks it wrong , for Luther to have “left” the CC.

So, to clarify: you don’t see anything wrong with one member of a church leaving his church over doctrine?

 

[TonyBS]

So, to clarify: you don’t see anything wrong with one member of a church leaving his church over doctrine?

Could it be Biblical that it would be so? If Biblical is there anything wrong with it or God Ordained so we are one and all to learn from it?

To me it teaches Division only results in varying degrees in Disunity, but once division has started and gained hold, how are we to stem the flow, do any of us have the answer?

God Bless and Regards Tony

 

[PRmerger]

Could it be Biblical that it would be so? If Biblical is there anything wrong with it or God Ordained so we are one and all to learn from it?

To me it teaches Division only results in varying degrees in Disunity, but once division has started and gained hold, how are we to stem the flow, do any of us have the answer?

God Bless and Regards Tony

Egg-zactly.

It is contrary to Scripture, as well as contrary to human reason, that it’s a good thing to be divided over doctrine.

 

[steve_b]

Does it matter which denomination a Christian belongs to? Trent Horn makes the case for the Catholic Church to a Protestant caller on Catholic Answers Live.

youtube.com/watch?v=E35Jc3oO76g

Absolutely it matters. Jesus hates division from what He established.

Jesus expects perfect unity in what He established, both for his apostles and for those who come into the ONE Church via the apostles teaching. John 17:20-23

The same Greek word for division ( )is in both of the following passages.

Romans 16:17-20 Paul’s letter to the Church of Rome, (all links operational)
Now I beseech you, brethren, to mark them who make dissensions διχοστασίας] and offences contrary to the doctrine which you have learned, and avoid them. For they that are such, serve not Christ our Lord, but their own belly; and by pleasing speeches and good words, seduce the hearts of the innocent. For your obedience is published in every place. I rejoice therefore in you. But I would have you to be wise in good, and simple in evil. And the God of peace crush Satan under your feet

and

Galatians 5:19-21
Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are fornication, uncleanness, immodesty, luxury, Idolatry, witchcrafts, enmities, contentions, emulations, wraths, quarrels, dissensions, διχοστασίας] sects, Envies, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like. Of the which I foretell you, as I have foretold to you, that they who do such things shall not obtain the kingdom of God.

THAT is horrible consequences for division from the Church. The Church spoken of here is the Catholic Church #34 BTW, that is where “outside the Catholic Church there is no salvation” comes from.

Protestantism’s DNA, is division from the Church of Rome. Those 2 selected passages ought to scare the willies out of Protestants. Protestantism is 100% man made, not divinely instituted. It’s division on steroids, and it’s also one of the worlds Great Heresies

Re heretics:

Paul says

Titus 3:10
“As for a man who is factious ( αἱρετικὸν heretic ), after admonishing him once or twice, have nothing more to do with him, 11 knowing that such a person is perverted and sinful; he is self-condemned.”

 

[Thorolfr]

The Church spoken of here is the Catholic Church

How do you know that the Church spoken of in Romans and Galatians is the Catholic Church? These two epistles both date to before 60 AD and there is a big gap between then and the first solid historical evidence for the institution that became the Catholic Church.