Trent Horn - Does it matter which Christian denomination you belong to?

[PRmerger]

How do you know that the Church spoken of in Romans and Galatians is the Catholic Church? These two epistles both date to before 60 AD and there is a big gap between then and the first solid historical evidence for the institution that became the Catholic Church.

Well, the same question would apply to your church, then, as well.

We ask: how do you know that the Church spoken of inRomans and Galatians is the Lutheran Church?

 

[Thorolfr]

Well, the same question would apply to your church, then, as well.

We ask: how do you know that the Church spoken of inRomans and Galatians is the Lutheran Church?

It might not be any currently existing church. I’m not confident that the church in whatever kind of institutional structure existed in Paul’s day has continued on down to the present because I think that there were many different, loosely connected Christian congregations in Paul’s day that did not form a single centralized institution.

 

[PRmerger]

It might not be any currently existing church. I’m not confident that the church in whatever kind of institutional structure existed in Paul’s day has continued on down to the present. I think that there were many different, loosely connected Christian congregations in Paul’s day that did not form a single centralized institution.

So Jesus proclaimed the kerygma, but wasn’t able to make sure that it was properly proclaimed?

 

[Thorolfr]

So Jesus proclaimed the kerygma, but wasn’t able to make sure that it was properly proclaimed?

There were (in my opinion) probably slightly different versions of the kerygma in different areas. That is why the Gospel of Mark is quite different in important ways from the Gospel of John, and each one of these gospels represented slightly different understandings of who Jesus was and came from different Christian communities or congregations. They didn’t come from one unified institution (in my opinion and that of many scholars as well).

 

[PRmerger]

There were (in my opinion) probably slightly different versions of the kerygma in different areas. That is why the Gospel of Mark is quite different in important ways from the Gospel of John, and each one of these gospels represented slightly different understandings of who Jesus was and came from different Christian communities or congregations. They didn’t come from one unified institution (in my opinion and that of many scholars as well).

Well, what is the right kerygma?

And how do we know?

Think about what you’re saying, Thor. Jesus, God Incarnate, endured a horrifying death via crucifixion, and then there’s no way to know if this really happened and if it atoned for the sins of the world?

That makes his monstrous, gruesome torture absolutely useless.

 

[estesbob]

How do you know that the Church spoken of in Romans and Galatians is the Catholic Church? These two epistles both date to before 60 AD and there is a big gap between then and the first solid historical evidence for the institution that became the Catholic Church.

The Catholic Church had been in existence since 33AD-obviously before these epistles were written

 

[JMM1957]

It might not be any currently existing church. I’m not confident that the church in whatever kind of institutional structure existed in Paul’s day has continued on down to the present because I think that there were many different, loosely connected Christian congregations in Paul’s day that did not form a single centralized institution.

You may want to seriously consider retracting your statement.

At the point of Jesus founding His Church in Matt. 16-18, there was no name given to it, it was just his Church. That Church, founded on the teachings of Jesus Christ must continue to this present day, because Jesus himself said that “the gates of the netherworld would not prevail against it.” It doesn’t matter if there were various Christian congregations spread out all over, they all were founded on Apostolic teaching whose foundation was Jesus teaching.

 

[benhur]

And all, the twelve Apostle, the Chief Cornerstone, and our forefathers, they were all in agreement on doctrine, wouldn’t you say? So, if some churches build something different on that foundation, by choosing to go off and teach doctrines that are not in agreement with, or have a different understanding of Scripture, than the original foundational church did, are they on “sure” footing?

Correct ,no. That is the wood, hay, and stubble, that shall be burned away, in that judgement day.

Blessings

 

[benhur]

So, to clarify: you don’t see anything wrong with one member of a church leaving his church over doctrine?

Correct. In fact, there are at times circumstances that would demand a “departing” just as there are times to stay… Again, was it correct for Manning or a Thigpen to leave their church and become Catholic?

Should a Sadducee hold on to their false belief on resurrection, or should he become a Pharisee (if he could) with correct doctrine ? And would he not be a Jew either way ?

Blessings

 

[Thorolfr]

It doesn’t matter if there were various Christian congregations spread out all over, they all were founded on Apostolic teaching whose foundation was Jesus teaching.

If the different congregations all had the same teaching, then why is the Gospel of John so different from the other gospels? Was John and his community the only one that originally got that slightly different teaching?

 

[PRmerger]

Correct. In fact, there are at times circumstances that would demand a “departing” just as there are times to stay… Again, was it correct for Manning or a Thigpen to leave their church and become Catholic?

Fair enough.

And is it permissible to leave and start your own church, with the doctrines that you think are correct?

 

[PRmerger]

If the different congregations all had the same teaching, then why is the Gospel of John so different from the other gospels? Was John and his community the only one that originally got that teaching?

It’s not “so different”. It’s simply part of the kerygma.

It is different, only in the same way that math is different than science. But they’re all part of the empirical world.

 

[JMM1957]

If the different congregations all had the same teaching, then why is the Gospel of John so different from the other gospels? Was John and his community the only one that originally got that slightly different teaching?

The same Jesus was preached by all the Apostles.

 

[estesbob]

If the different congregations all had the same teaching, then why is the Gospel of John so different from the other gospels? Was John and his community the only one that originally got that slightly different teaching?

Doe John teach anything different than the other Gospels?

 

[steve_b]

How do you know that the Church spoken of in Romans and Galatians is the Catholic Church?

Who do you think Romans is written to? Nero and his bunch? Nope
Paul is writing to the Church of Rome in his letter to the Romans, And also to the Church in Galatia. The Church is one not a bunch of disparate churches disconnected from each other. Even though in many places, the Church is one by Jesus command John 17:20-23. And the Catholic Church is already there in Rome at his writing of Romans. Peter was already there and Paul is going to add to them as well.

You are Lutheran. Martin Luther your founder, broke from, and was ultimately excommunicated from, that same Church of Rome in the 16th century that Paul wrote to 1500 years earlier, and said don’t divide διχοστασίας* dichostasia* ] from it… or else, " they who do such things shall not obtain the kingdom of God.

It doesn’t get clearer than that. And there is no expiration date to that dire warning. It’s good in the 1st century as it is forever.

It looks like you didn’t open up #34
T:

These two epistles both date to before 60 AD

So does the Catholic Church.
T:

and there is a big gap between then and the first solid historical evidence for the institution that became the Catholic Church.

open up #34 . The ἐκκλησία,καθ’,ὅλης ,τῆς (the kataholos ekklasia, the Catholic Church in English) was already there. And we see the name Catholic Church used without any push back from ANYONE East or West in those who followed and were direct disciples of the apostles…

I thought my post #517 answered these points.

 

[Thorolfr]

open up #34 . The ἐκκλησία,καθ’,ὅλης ,τῆς (the kataholos ekklasia, the Catholic Church in English) was already there. And we see the name Catholic Church used without any push back from ANYONE East or West in those who followed and were direct disciples of the apostles…

I thought my post #517 answered these points.

Acts 9:31 begins, “Meanwhile the church throughout Judea, Galilee, and Samaria had peace and was built up.” The prepositional phrase “kath’ holes” just means “throughout” and is not part of the name of an institution.

 

[benhur]

Absolutely it matters. Jesus hates division from what He established.

Jesus expects perfect unity in what He established, both for his apostles and for those who come into the ONE Church via the apostles teaching. John 17:20-23

The same Greek word for division ( )is in both of the following passages.

Romans 16:17-20 Paul’s letter to the Church of Rome, (all links operational)
Now I beseech you, brethren, to mark them who make dissensions διχοστασίας] and offences contrary to the doctrine which you have learned, and avoid them. For they that are such, serve not Christ our Lord, but their own belly; and by pleasing speeches and good words, seduce the hearts of the innocent. For your obedience is published in every place. I rejoice therefore in you. But I would have you to be wise in good, and simple in evil. And the God of peace crush Satan under your feet

and

Galatians 5:19-21
Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are fornication, uncleanness, immodesty, luxury, Idolatry, witchcrafts, enmities, contentions, emulations, wraths, quarrels, dissensions, διχοστασίας] sects, Envies, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like. Of the which I foretell you, as I have foretold to you, that they who do such things shall not obtain the kingdom of God.

Protestantism’s DNA, is division from the Church of Rome. Those 2 selected passages ought to scare the willies out of Protestants. Protestantism is 100% man made, not divinely instituted. It’s division on steroids, and it’s also one of the worlds Great Heresies

Re heretics:

Paul says

Titus 3:10
“As for a man who is factious ( αἱρετικὸ****ν heretic ), after admonishing him once or twice, have nothing more to do with him, 11 knowing that such a person is perverted and sinful; he is self-condemned.”

Hi steve,

While Paul says hold on to traditions, he also says to allow for some differences (eating meats,holidays etc). So while some might say “hold on to traditions” allows many things, one could also say “allow for differences” could allow many things.

Well from your quote the dissensions Paul speaks of are enough to qualify barring from the kingdom. But Vat 2 ( Lumen Gentia ?) says P’s and O’s are separated* brethren*, and are therefore not barred from the kingdom, are not the dissenters that Paul was speaking of.

It is like you are saying only Heinz Ketchup is the legitimate ketchup, and all others are false, that Hunts Ketchup is not ketchup. I think Heinz is ketchup and Hunts are both “ketchup”, as are a few other good brands. Now mustard or hot sauce are not kethcups but “dissenters”. At best Vat 2 says Heinz is the best and "original’’ ketchup, and all others stem from, or copycatted but not to perfection, Heinz.

Blessings

 

[benhur]

Acts 9:31 begins, “Meanwhile the church throughout Judea, Galilee, and Samaria had peace and was built up.” The prepositional phrase “kath’ holes” just means “throughout” and is not part of the name of an institution.

Agree. And “all” is not “catholos”. Some read it “the church throughout Judea”, and some “the church throughout all Judea”.

Blessings

 

[rcwitness]

I believe the Catholic Church has recognized a real brotherhood (communion) with many (though it’s impossible to discern all the continually growing denomination’s doctrines) church bodies. The principle uniting elements are belief and practice of Baptism and veneration of Sacred Scripture.

Nevertheless, there are personal levels of understanding which bear on the conscience of these members. If they become aware of the existence of the Catholic Church, there becomes a responsibility, and compulsion by the Spirit, to seek what it means. Ultimately, there is a confrontation with Jesus and His Eucharist with most all Christians.

As it is, there is division in the body and this is an open wound. We must all follow our conscience to build up the body. I strongly believe we should be “in His body” to properly and best serve the body.

 

[rcwitness]

Agree. And “all” is not “catholos”. Some read it “the church throughout Judea”, and some “the church throughout all Judea”.

Blessings

I think it refers to the Church “of the whole”. And the following verse says something to Peter’s universal jurisdiction.

“32*Now as Peter went here and there among them all, he came down also to the saints that lived at Lydda.”