Trent Horn - Does it matter which Christian denomination you belong to?

[benhur]

I think it refers to the Church “of the whole”.
."

Hi rc,
Yes probably, and in hindsight could be like the adjective "catholos’’, universal, at least as far as it had spread at that time. Just disagree with those who insert catholic into the text for "brand " name justification.

And the following verse says something to Peter’s universal jurisdiction.
“32*Now as Peter went here and there among them all, he came down also to the saints that lived at Lydda.”

Yes , as an apostle, even leader of the apostles yet equal .

Blessings

 

[benhur]

I believe the Catholic Church has recognized a real brotherhood (communion) with many (though it’s impossible to discern all the continually growing denomination’s doctrines) church bodies. The principle uniting elements are belief and practice of Baptism and veneration of Sacred Scripture.

Nevertheless, there are personal levels of understanding which bear on the conscience of these members. If they become aware of the existence of the Catholic Church, there becomes a responsibility, and compulsion by the Spirit, to seek what it means. Ultimately, there is a confrontation with Jesus and His Eucharist with most all Christians.

As it is, there is division in the body and this is an open wound. We must all follow our conscience to build up the body. I strongly believe we should be “in His body” to properly and best serve the body.

Do you mean baptized into His body , the Bride, the Ecclesia?

 

[steve_b]

Acts 9:31 begins, “Meanwhile the church throughout Judea, Galilee, and Samaria had peace and was built up.” The prepositional phrase “kath’ holes” just means “throughout” and is not part of the name of an institution.

I was quoting from the Greek scriptures not from an English translation

here is Acts 9:31 (links are operational)

Ἡ μὲν οὖν **ἐκκλησία καθ’ ὅλης τῆς **Ἰουδαίας καὶ Γαλιλαίας καὶ Σαμαρείας εἶχεν εἰρήνην οἰκοδομουμένη καὶ πορευομένη τῷ φόβῳ τοῦ κυρίου καὶ τῇ παρακλήσει τοῦ ἁγίου πνεύματος ἐπληθύνετο.

therefore, Acts 9:31 ἐκκλησία καθ’ ὅλης τῆς became ἡ καθολικὴ ἐκκλησία in Ignatius writings. katholikos came from kata holos

Ch 8 Ignatius letter to the Smyrneans

1. Πάντες τῷ ἐπισκόπῳ ἀκολουθεῖτε, ὡς Ἰησοῦς Χριστὸς τῷ πατρί, καὶ τῷ πρεσβυτερἰῳ ὡς τοῖς ἀποστόλοις. τοὺς δὲ διακόνους ἐντρέπεσθε ὡς θεοῦ ἐντολήν. μηδεὶς χωρὶς τοῦ ἐπισκόπου τι πρασσέτω τῶν ἀνηκόντων εἰς τὴν ἐκκλησίαν. ἐκείνη βεβαία εὐχαριστία ἡγείσθω, ἡ ὑπὸ ἐπίσοπον οὖσα ἢ ᾧ ἂν αὐτὸς ἐπιτρέψῃ. 2. ὅπου ἂν φανῇ ὁ ἐπίσκοπος, ἐκεῖ τὸ πλῆθος ἤτω, ὥσπερ ὅπου ἂν ῇ Ἰησοῦς Χριστός, ἐκεῖ ἡ καθολικὴ ἐκκλησία. οὐκ ἐξόν ἐστιν χωρὶς τοῦ ἐπισκόπου οὔτε βαπτίζειν οὔτε ἀγάπην ποιεῖν· ἀλλ’ ὃ ἂν ἐκεῖνος δοκιμάσῃ, τοῦτο καὶ τῷ θεῷ εὐάρεστον, ἵνα ἀσφαλὲς ᾖ καὶ βέβαιον πᾶν ὃ πράσσετε.

Translated

See that ye all follow the bishop, even as Jesus Christ does the Father, and the presbytery as ye would the apostles; and reverence the deacons, as being the institution of God. Let no man do anything connected with the Church without the bishop. Let that be deemed a proper Eucharist, which is[administered] either by the bishop, or by one to whom he has entrusted it. Wherever the bishop shall appear, there let the multitude[of the people] also be; even as, wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church. It is not lawful without the bishop either to baptize or to celebrate a love-feast; but whatsoever he shall approve of, that is also pleasing to God, so that everything that is done may be secure and valid.

Ignatius was ordained bishop by the apostles ~69 a.d. That makes him a direct disciple of John the apostle till John died, around the year 100. One has to ask the question, where did Ignatius get the idea to call the Church the Catholic Church? He was certainly doing that since he was bishop of Antioch. Reading his letters, he wasn’t one to innovate. And why was their no objections to, or questioning of, the name?

No one challenged this name for the Church. No one. Polycarp was another bishop who was a direct disciple of John. He also calls the Church the Catholic Church. And that goes on and on.

 

[Thorolfr]

I was quoting from the Greek scriptures not from an English translation

Regardless of how the word was used at a later time, in the context of Acts 9:31, it is not being used as an adjective referring to the universal or Catholic Church as an institution. It just has the meaning “the church throughout XXX [region]”

 

[steve_b]

Hi steve,

While Paul says hold on to traditions, he also says to allow for some differences (eating meats,holidays etc). So while some might say “hold on to traditions” allows many things, one could also say “allow for differences” could allow many things.

Except, division is condemned. There’s no wiggle room on that.
bh:

Well from your quote the dissensions Paul speaks of are enough to qualify barring from the kingdom. But Vat 2 ( Lumen Gentia ?) says P’s and O’s are separated* brethren*, and are therefore not barred from the kingdom, are not the dissenters that Paul was speaking of.

P’s and O’s are outside the Catholic Church. LG does NOT give a pass on that. Division is division.

(emphasis mine)

“14. This Sacred Council wishes to turn its attention firstly to the Catholic faithful. Basing itself upon Sacred Scripture and Tradition, it teaches that the Church, now sojourning on earth as an exile, is necessary for salvation. Christ, present to us in His Body, which is the Church, is the one Mediator and the unique way of salvation. In explicit terms He Himself affirmed the necessity of faith and baptism(124) and thereby affirmed also the necessity of the Church, for through baptism as through a door men enter the Church.** Whosoever, therefore, knowing that the Catholic Church was made necessary by Christ, would refuse to enter or to remain in it, could not be saved.**
They are fully incorporated in the society of the Church who, possessing the Spirit of Christ accept her entire system and all the means of salvation given to her, and are united with her as part of her visible bodily structure and through her with Christ, who rules her through the Supreme Pontiff and the bishops. The bonds which bind men to the Church in a visible way are profession of faith, the sacraments, and ecclesiastical government and communion.”

Lumen gentium
bh:

It is like you are saying only Heinz Ketchup is the legitimate ketchup, and all others are false, that Hunts Ketchup is not ketchup. I think Heinz is ketchup and Hunts are both “ketchup”, as are a few other good brands. Now mustard or hot sauce are not kethcups but “dissenters”. At best Vat 2 says Heinz is the best and "original’’ ketchup, and all others stem from, or copycatted but not to perfection, Heinz.

Blessings

Jesus established one Church. Please don’t suggest that any man made flavor that presumes to offer what Jesus established in His Church, and think it’s just as good as what Jesus established, I have to tell ya my friend, with all transparency, THAT is absolutely condemned by Jesus.

When Jesus said He’s sending the HS to guide the apostles into all truth , the HS doesn’t speak on His own but takes from Jesus and passes it on to the apostles. John 16:12-15

Therefore, when Paul said those who divide from the Church won’t be going to heaven, [Gal 5:21] that came from Jesus, the one who will judge EVERYONE

Just a heads up

 

[steve_b]

Regardless of how the word was used at a later time, in the context of Acts 9:31, it is not being used as an adjective referring to the universal or Catholic Church as an institution. It just has the meaning “the church throughout XXX [region]”

St Luke who wrote Acts, is in the Church he’s writing to and for. At the time Acts is written, Ignatius, disciple of John, is already a bishop in the Catholic Church in Antioch. And all 6 letters he writes, are to the Catholic Church in those 6 locations he writes to.

 

[Porknpie]

It might not be any currently existing church. I’m not confident that the church in whatever kind of institutional structure existed in Paul’s day has continued on down to the present because I think that there were many different, loosely connected Christian congregations in Paul’s day that did not form a single centralized institution.

Did any Church in Paul’s day have woman Pastors? Please site a reference that I can read…scripture or an early Church writing that says so.

 

[Thorolfr]

Did any Church in Paul’s day have woman Pastors? Please site a reference that I can read…scripture or an early Church writing that says so.

Junia or Junias (Greek: Ιουνια / Ιουνιας, Iounia) was a 1st-century Christian highly regarded and complimented by apostle Paul. Paul possibly refers to Junia as an apostle [Romans 16:7: “Greet Andronicus and Junia, my relatives who were in prison with me; they are prominent among the apostles,…”]. The consensus among modern New Testament scholars is that Junia was a woman

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Junia

 

[benhur]

Except, division is condemned. There’s no wiggle room on that.

Yes, but division over what ? How we sign the cross, or are immersed or sprinkled in baptism, do Easter on this day or that, believe Mary ascended or not, how partake in communion, etc…

That was Paul’s point, the proper time to make a stand , and sometimes not to. As the Didache says, “Pacify those who contend”.

Sometimes folks do things differently in error. Sometimes folks do things differently not in error and our pride is not comfortable with that and assigns error (or rightness to their view).

But yes, dissension is bad . Just as police sometimes must assign fault to both parties in an accident varying with the circumstances, so to it is with some dissension, division.

Blessings

 

[estesbob]

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Junia

Perfect example of how people construct massive theological arguments out of a single line of Scripture.Thankfully we have the Church to guide us.

 

[Thorolfr]

Except, division is condemned. There’s no wiggle room on that.

True. Everyone should become ELCA Lutherans so there’s no division.

 

[Thorolfr]

Perfect example of how people construct massive theological arguments out of a single line of Scripture.Thankfully we have the Church to guide us.

The Catholic Church is quite good at constructing massive theological arguments out of single lines in Scripture.

Papal supremacy = And I say also unto you, That you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church;

 

[estesbob]

The Catholic Church is quite good at constructing massive theological arguments out of single lines in Scripture.

Papal supremacy = And I say also unto you, That you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church;

With 2,000 years of teachings and tradition to back it up.

 

[TonyBS]

Perfect example of how people construct massive theological arguments out of a single line of Scripture.Thankfully we have the Church to guide us.

This is the great thing about Gods word and why we should always be Open to further meaning.

One Letter of Gods Word has a lot of Meaning, when put in a word so much more and when put into a Book, unfathomable!

In the Bible I see it as “I Have much More to say unto you” and If I may, here is a passage explaining this aspect from the Baha’i Writings

"It is evident unto thee that the Birds of Heaven and Doves of Eternity speak a twofold language. One language, the outward language, is devoid of allusions, is unconcealed and unveiled; that it may be a guiding lamp and a beaconing light whereby wayfarers may attain the heights of holiness, and seekers may advance into the realm of eternal reunion. Such are the unveiled traditions and the evident verses already mentioned. The other language is veiled and concealed, so that whatever lieth hidden in the heart of the malevolent may be made manifest and their innermost being be disclosed. Thus hath Ṣádiq, son of Muḥammad, spoken: “God verily will test them and sift them.” This is the divine standard, this is the Touchstone of God, wherewith He proveth His servants. None apprehendeth the meaning of these utterances except them whose hearts are assured, whose souls have found favour with God, and whose minds are detached from all else but Him. In such utterances, the literal meaning, as generally understood by the people, is not what hath been intended. Thus it is recorded:** “Every knowledge hath seventy meanings, of which one only is known amongst the people.** And when the Qá’im shall arise, He shall reveal unto men all that which remaineth.” He also saith: “We speak one word, and by it we intend one and seventy meanings; each one of these meanings we can explain.”. reference.bahai.org/en/t/b/KI/ki-8.html

So in the end does it matter which way we follow God and what Denomination we have chosen to Follow God? Is it not important to explore Faith and while doing so Love God and all Humanity. Never let Scripture Divide!

Regards Tony

 

[TonyBS]

With 2,000 years of teachings and tradition to back it up.

Yes there is a myriad of lifetimes of Wisdom to Pursue

God bless and Regards Tony

 

[steve_b]

Yes, but division over what ? How we sign the cross, or are immersed or sprinkled in baptism, do Easter on this day or that, believe Mary ascended or not, how partake in communion, etc…

benhur,

I’ll try and make this purely clinical. i.e. commands given by Jesus, and the consequences if one doesn’t obey

I used 2 sins,

αἱρετικὸν &

open those links to see the description of the offense

Protestantism regardless of stripe, which came out of the 16th century, broke from the Catholic Church, and has become division on steroids. Scripture condemns that.
bh:

That was Paul’s point, the proper time to make a stand , and sometimes not to.

Sometimes folks do things differently in error. Sometimes folks do things differently not in error and our pride is not comfortable with that and assigns error (or rightness to their view).

But yes, dissension is bad . Just as police sometimes must assign fault to both parties in an accident varying with the circumstances, so to it is with some dissension, division.

Blessings

This is what Jesus wants. John 17:20-23
He established one Church. That’s not going to change. That Church is still here today, with pope Francis 266th successor to St Peter at the helm.

People can persist arguing for being justified for their division from His Church, but at the end of the day, Jesus condemns that, in scripture, and He told us all in advance what the consequences for that is.

Prayers ascending for that unity

 

[JMM1957]

benhur,

I’ll try and make this purely clinical. i.e. commands given by Jesus, and the consequences if one doesn’t obey

I used 2 sins,

αἱρετικὸ****ν &

open those links to see the description of the offense

Protestantism regardless of stripe, which came out of the 16th century, broke from the Catholic Church, and has become division on steroids. Scripture condemns that.

This is what Jesus wants. John 17:20-23
He established one Church. That’s not going to change. That Church is still here today, with pope Francis 266th successor to St Peter at the helm.

People can persist arguing for being justified for their division from His Church, but at the end of the day, Jesus condemns that, in scripture, and He told us all in advance what the consequences for that is.

Prayers ascending for that unity

I have always loved these particular verses, they are powerful words. Those that are members of churches that broke away from the CC, how do you justify all the thousands of separate churches when you read, “so that they may all be one, as you, Father, are in me and I in you.” Is Christianity showing this kind of unity, like the unity of the Father and Son?

 

[zz912]

The Catholic Church is quite good at constructing massive theological arguments out of single lines in Scripture.

Papal supremacy = And I say also unto you, That you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church;

You think papal supremacy is based upon one single line of Scripture? Wow.

First, it’s not one line. Jesus also gives the keys of the kingdom to Peter, He prays for Peter individually, and charges Peter individually with strengthening his brothers. He also commands Peter to feed, tend and feed His sheep. There is also the time in the Council when Peter declares a teaching, and all fell silent. That and Peter being mentioned more than all the other Apostles combined.

Second, papal supremacy was recognized when the Bible canon was determined (at Carthage in 397 AD). They recognized that their determination must be affirmed by the Pope.

It was also determined that besides the Canonical Scriptures nothing be read in the Church under the title of divine Scriptures. The Canonical Scriptures are these: Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, Deuteronomy, Joshua the son of Nun, Judges, Ruth, four books of Kings, 3 two books of Paraleipomena, 4 Job, the Psalter, five books of Solomon, 5 the books of the twelve prophets, Isaiah, Jeremiah, Ezechiel, Daniel, Tobit, Judith, Esther, two books of Esdras, 6 two books of the Maccabees. Of the New Testament: four books of the Gospels, one book of the Acts of the Apostles, thirteen Epistles of the Apostle Paul, one epistle of the same [writer] to the Hebrews, two Epistles of the Apostle Peter, three of John, one of James, one of Jude, one book of the Apocalypse of John. Let this be made known also to our brother and fellow-priest Boniface, or to other bishops of those parts, for the purpose of confirming that Canon. because we have received from our fathers that those books must be read in the Church. Let it also be allowed that the Passions of Martyrs be read when their festivals are kept.

They note that the Pope (Boniface) must affirm their declaration for it to be authoritative.

 

[steve_b]

I have always loved these particular verses, they are powerful words. Those that are members of churches that broke away from the CC, how do you justify all the thousands of separate churches when you read, “so that they may all be one, as you, Father, are in me and I in you.” Is Christianity showing this kind of unity, like the unity of the Father and Son?

in addition,

since Jesus so often told a story to get His point across, here’s one that deals with that issue of division from the one Church Jesus builds on Peter the Rock

Lk 14:28 For which of you, desiring to build a tower, does not first sit down and count the cost, whether he has enough to complete it? 29 Otherwise, when he has laid a foundation, and is not able to finish, all who see it begin to mock him, 30 saying, ‘This man began to build, and was not able to finish.’

That’s why Jesus condemned division from His Church and why the consequences are so dire for those who do it and/or remain in such division.

 

[benhur]

I have always loved these particular verses, they are powerful words. Those that are members of churches that broke away from the CC, how do you justify all the thousands of separate churches when you read, “so that they may all be one, as you, Father, are in me and I in you.” Is Christianity showing this kind of unity, like the unity of the Father and Son?

Hi J’

Agree, a huge obstacle, even stumbling block for any Catholic and others to overcome. For sure then, anyone coming to see it the P way has to be a work of God.

Blessings