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Seeker
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Who is the Holy Spirit from your point of view?
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Seeker
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really according to who, you?..Show me one authentic Catholic reference/source that refers to “I AM WHO I AM” as “I AM THE MESSIAH”? …In fact show me an authentic reference from any of the other Christian sects (Orthodox, Protestant, Evangelical…) that says the I AM sayings refers to “I AM A MESSIAH”
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Seeker
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Hello guys, I’m new to this site and I hope I will be welcomed here nicely.
I was brought up an Anglican, and have been influenced by Catholics and Muslims respectively. This has helped my gain a decent understanding of their faith, and a better understanding of my own.
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Recently (After watching debates to gain an even broader understanding of Christianity), I have looked at Scripture in a different light, and see no reason to believe that Jesus claimed to be God, and believe that God is tri-une in nature. I do still hold that Yeshua is our saviour, the Son of God, the Messiah, Lamb of God, etc
Seeker: What debates did you watch, do you care to share the links to those debates??..
OK I am confused, so you deny the Trinity, but you still hold the view that Jesus is our savior, the Son of GOD, the Messiah, Lamb of GOD???..In what way did the Catholic and Muslim faiths help you gain a better understanding of your own, when the Catholic faith like the Anglican faith believe in the Trinity (as in GOD is tri-une in nature)??? And as for the Muslim faith, not only do they deny the Trinity, they deny that Jesus is the Son of GOD, Lamb of GOD.
Is there any scripture that could convince me otherwise?
God bless you and have good day
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Seeker
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can’t agree with you more
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Seeker
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So you a Jew for Jesus, not an Anglican/Unitarian??
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Seeker
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from what I can see is that your argument is based on your own interpretations, and if i or anyone else for that matter were to go by your standards of argumentation, we can reinterpret verses of scripture that you quoted and say Jesus was false Messiah, and isn’t this what the Jews in Jesus’s day think about Jesus??
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Robyn_p
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YiiNaa; 10603393:
The sacred author makes a clear line between the obeisance being given to David, and the worship being given God. And David is LEADING and acting as priest here, so it makes sense he would receive attention. (That happens even in todays worship, the presider or minister is given special honor.) That is not the case in the passage from Revelation I referenced.The elders are leading all of heaven and earth in the worship of the Throne and the Lamb. If Jesus was leading and telling people to worship God, that would be a closer parallel, but that’s not the case.
But you don’t address the one I cited at all. I wouldn’t say this one is simply an interesting parallel, it’s a clear reference to his divinity. Jeremiah 17:10 says the Lord is the one who reads the minds and hearts of men and repays them for their deeds. Revelation 2:23 Jesus says he is the one who does that. Please show me where I’m going wrong here.
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True, I’m glad you pointed that out. There is a lot of confusion, but notice every time there was confusion, Jesus or St. John in his commentary make crystal clear what the true meaning was. C.f. John chapters 2,3,4,11. In all of those passages, Jesus says something, people take him literally, he clears away the misunderstanding. The only times he doesn’t is in Jn 6 and 8. Interesting.
Is this the passage you are referring to??
I see no worship of King David in this passage.
The sacred author makes a clear line between the obeisance being given to David, and the worship being given God. And David is LEADING and acting as priest here, so it makes sense he would receive attention. (That happens even in todays worship, the presider or minister is given special honor.) That is not the case in the passage from Revelation I referenced.The elders are leading all of heaven and earth in the worship of the Throne and the Lamb. If Jesus was leading and telling people to worship God, that would be a closer parallel, but that’s not the case.I can find more than one
But you don’t address the one I cited at all. I wouldn’t say this one is simply an interesting parallel, it’s a clear reference to his divinity. Jeremiah 17:10 says the Lord is the one who reads the minds and hearts of men and repays them for their deeds. Revelation 2:23 Jesus says he is the one who does that. Please show me where I’m going wrong here.My friend, of course there’s a distinction. Catholics make the distinction as well. We don’t believe the Father and Son are the same person. The Trinity is defined as three divine persons, distinct but not separate, in one divine nature. There is no problem with the bible making a distinction. It fits in our theology. Jesus being given the exact same titles and attributes and worship as God however, cannot work in your theology. Again I will repeat, IF ANY CREATURE IS WORSHIPPED IN THE SAME WAY AS THE ALMIGHTY GOD, THAT IS IDOLATRY. A huge sin. (that wasnt supposed to be me yelling by the way, just wanted to make the emphasis clear
)Would it be convincing for you that according to Colossians 1:16 and Hebrews 2:10 and elsewhere, Jesus is said to be creator of all things, which the OT made clear only God was. And no, he wasn’t created first and then helped God create everything else. According to God himself, he created the universe without any help from any creature.(Is 44:24) So that leaves us with only one option, Jesus created everything because he is God.
No evidence of that my friend. In greek it says “ho kurios moi kai ho theos moi” which literally means “The Lord of me and the God of me.” Where do you get from that that Thomas sees Jesus as an agent?
No offense, but Thomas calls Jesus “my Lord and my God”, and the only answer you could come up with was the word God can mean something other than God….Can you at least see where we are coming from??? Thank you for taking the time to respond to all of our posts by the way.
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GaryTaylor
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YiiNaa, while part of what your saying has some truth, the basis of your thinking is incorrect. Here. read quickly this one page article. You are referring to deity names used by Judaism to refer to the person of God. El is from Genesis as this article states. it was also found inscribed on the walls of the slave caves in Egypt during the period of Exodus.
"The numerous names for God have been a source of debate among biblical scholars. Elohim (god, or authority, plural form), El (mighty one), El Shaddai (almighty), Adonai (master), Elyon (highest), Avinu (our father), are regarded by many religious Jews not as names, but as titles highlighting different aspects of YHWH and the various ‘roles’ of God.
Other Jewish sources believe that the use of various names of God in the Hebrew Bible, and the fact that Elohim is a plural word suggests a polytheistic origin.[1] Thus the ancient Rabbis went to great lengths to try to account for the number of the names of God, by claiming that they account for the various aspects of God."
The Tetragrammaton Rabbinic conception of monotheism that God exists by himself for himself, and is the uncreated Creator who is independent of any concept, force, or entity (“I am that I am”).
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Names_of_God_in_Judaism
No different in Christianity. The trinity is I AM one God, one Essence. The Apostles followed Orthodox Judaism tradition.
Jn.8:24 “Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for if you do not believe that * (He), you will die in your sins.”
John 6:51:"* the living bread which came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever;"
John 8:23: And He said to them, "You are from beneath; * from above. You are of this world; I am not of this world.
John 8:12: Then Jesus spoke to them again, saying, “* the light of the world. He who follows Me shall not walk in darkness, but have the light of life.”
John 8:58 Jesus said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, *.”
John 10:9: “* the door. If anyone enters by Me, he will be saved, and will go in and out and find pasture.”
John 10:11: "* the good shepherd. The good shepherd gives His life for the sheep.
John 10:36: "do you say of Him whom the Father sanctified and sent into the world, ‘You are blaspheming,’ because I said, ‘I AM] the Son of God’?
John 11:25: Jesus said to her, "* the resurrection and the life. He who believes in Me, though he may die, he shall live.
John 14:6: Jesus said to him, "* the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.
John 15:1: "* the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser.
John 19:2: Therefore the chief priests of the Jews said to Pilate, “Do not write, ‘The King of the Jews,’ but, ‘He said, “* the King of the Jews.”’”
Follow? Gods nature/essence is what one is, while a person is who one is.
As far as the second person trinity being equal to God the Father. Equality doesn’t relate to the person of who one is, but to the nature/essence which proceeds from the Principle[God the Father/Son of God] as principle from principle who’s active power is always “perfect” by the intellect and will of God. The intellect and will of God are always in act “I AM”. The divine intellect is never without the Word, nor is the divine will ever without Love, thus the Holy Spirit. Thus the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, Beginning and End…One God, as revealed by God through Grace.
However, the idea that Jesus is a lesser deity begotten by God is philosophically impossible. There are really only three alternatives here.
1] Either Jesus Christ is exactly who He said He is, “The Living God”
2] He was liar.
3] He was delusional***********
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Darryl_B
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First I tend to disagree, it is very easy to take the time to answer everything if you can. If there are too many points to deal with then there is probably a good case for the Trinity. If there was not a good case for the Trinity I would expect you to be able to actually answer everything reasonably well.
Secondly you need to approach the subject slower. 13 pages of threads is quite prolific when you are the only unitarian dealing with the thread.
Could I ask you please to slow down and deal with a question of mine? You say that Jesus was a manifestation of God but not actually God. Could you please answer this. From what I can tell you are DEFINING the word manifestation different to what I would.
You are defining manifestation in the sense of “look-a-like”. The Biblical definition is that you walk into a dark room, turn on the light, and see the real thing. Manifestation means becoming visible, but you are using manifestation in the sense of “look-a-like” ie seems like God but isn’t.
If this is not the case then perhaps you could put the term manifestation into an example as I have done, in the way you define it.
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YiiNaa
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Paul was a Unitarian (1 Corinth 8:6)
With the form of God in phill 2:6, the lexicons have differing views on the way to translate the word “morphe”
Jesus is the image of the father, and is in the form (outward appearance / agent) of him
The nicene creed was formulated way after the death of christ
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YiiNaa
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The verses quoted never meant that messiah is God.
The Jewish rabbis never saw it this way, and it seems like the church is trying to change the way that these verses were seen historically to make their case for the trinity.
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YiiNaa
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True, I’m glad you pointed that out. There is a lot of confusion, but notice every time there was confusion, Jesus or St. John in his commentary make crystal clear what the true meaning was. C.f. John chapters 2,3,4,11. In all of those passages, Jesus says something, people take him literally, he clears away the misunderstanding. The only times he doesn’t is in Jn 6 and 8. Interesting.
Is this the passage you are referring to??
I see no worship of King David in this passage.
I can find more than one
My friend, of course there’s a distinction. Catholics make the distinction as well. We don’t believe the Father and Son are the same person. The Trinity is defined as three divine persons, distinct but not separate, in one divine nature. There is no problem with the bible making a distinction. It fits in our theology. Jesus being given the exact same titles and attributes and worship as God however, cannot work in your theology. Again I will repeat, IF ANY CREATURE IS WORSHIPPED IN THE SAME WAY AS THE ALMIGHTY GOD, THAT IS IDOLATRY. A huge sin. (that wasnt supposed to be me yelling by the way, just wanted to make the emphasis clear
Would it be convincing for you that according to Colossians 1:16 and Hebrews 2:10 and elsewhere, Jesus is said to be creator of all things, which the OT made clear only God was. And no, he wasn’t created first and then helped God create everything else. According to God himself, he created the universe without any help from any creature.(Is 44:24) So that leaves us with only one option, Jesus created everything because he is God.
No evidence of that my friend. In greek it says “ho kurios moi kai ho theos moi” which literally means “The Lord of me and the God of me.” Where do you get from that that Thomas sees Jesus as an agent?
No offense, but Thomas calls Jesus “my Lord and my God”, and the only answer you could come up with was the word God can mean something other than God….Can you at least see where we are coming from??? Thank you for taking the time to respond to all of our posts by the way.
- David was worshipped in the passage you quoted, from the translation I read. Go back to the original Greek and see what it says there
- The same word used for worship (in chronicles) was used for Jesus in the NT
- The word used for worshipping the father is not used for Jesus
4.I will respond to the others later( I’m busy lol)
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PRmerger
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Okay. I am really interested in pursuing how you know that the NT is inspired without the Catholic Church telling you it was.
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YiiNaa
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Jesus is a manifestation of the word of God.
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Razanir
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By your apparent definition of a manifestation is just a look-alike, not you’re saying Jesus isn’t even the Word of God. Just a person who looks and acts like the Word
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Z_Ninja
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pablope
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YiiNaa
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I didn’t say he was a manifestation of God.
I said he was a manifestation of the **word **of God (the word became flesh).
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Razanir
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In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. –John 1:1
And as we have pointed out, the Word IS God, unless you’re using a poorly translated Bible that says “… and the Word was a god”
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YiiNaa
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The debates gave me insights into my own religion; they helped me understand why I believed what I believed.
Trinity
This is the best christian/muslim one ive seen
Islam and violence
And many more
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