Trinity

[YiiNaa]

I would contend, with all due respect, that one of the basic, foundational doctrines of Christianity is the Doctrine of the Trinity. Even in the broad, general sense that the term protestant is used today, it still applies to Christians. To be protestant, just like Catholic and Orthodox, is to be Christian. To be protestant Christian is to believe in the Trinity.

Jon

Jesus was not a trinitarian.

 

[Bballer32]

I believe he is an agent that was rewarded by God for his perfect obedience and submission to his will.

My point with the Alpha and Omega is that we do not fully know the meaning of it(in context), it doesn’t appear much in Jewish literature. It is not good to conclude that Jesus is God because of this.

I beg to differ!

Alpha and Omega create the letters in Hebrew “TEV” and “ALEF” which combined create the word “EMET” which translates to “Truth”

The word Emet according to Jewish custom is only applied to God. Therefore, when Christ spoke of being the Alpha and the Omega, the practicing Jew would have obviously been astounded to hear this since only God would be called this. Jesus would not say this to Blaspheme God if he were an agent like you claim. An agent of God would not call himself God because he knew that God was far superior to him. And so from our stand point, the only LOGICAL reason why Christ would call himself this was because he is God also!!! No agent of God would call himself that!

 

[JMJ_coder]

Jesus is from Mary and the Holy Spirit.

By the Holy Spirit Jesus was incarnate of the Virgin Mary. True.

Question - what is your viewpoint on the divinity of the Holy Spirit. If you deny the divinity of the Holy Spirit, then what do you say? Who, or what, is the Holy Spirit?

 

[Darryl_B]

Trinitarian scholars don’t even use this to support the trinity. Understand the plurality here requires some understanding of the ancient hebrew language and ancient hebrew literature. Hebraic plurals are different from the ones we have in English.

I understand this verse as God and his angels. There are many interpretations to look into, but I’m open minded on this verse

You cannot understand this passage to refer to the angels. There is a passage in the Psalms that states angels had absolutely no part in Creation. Or Eccles 12:1 Remember your Creator(s).

Your information about Hebrew language is incorrect. I suspect you have been taught, in yet you then turn around and interpret it as a plural, just the wrong plural. Interpreting Scripture with preconceived ideas.

When Jesus said “I AM” the Jews knew exactly what he meant enough to get very very angry. Jesus could have corrected your perceived misunderstanding and said “No, no I mean I was a plan”.

If Jesus is not “God manifest in the flesh” then he is simply an impersonator. We would need to wait for another. It would be much like saying “Elvis with us”, and only ending up with an Elvis impersonator. A very disappointing position to be. The Elvis impersonator would say “if you have seen me then you have seen Elvis”. Sorry I am not so easily fooled. I want my money back.

But such is the unitarian understanding.

 

[Monergistic]

I’m a jewish rabbi living in Palestine that becomes a christian in 90AD. I’ve just read all the gospels.

I would naturally think that Jesus is the son of God, but I would not think he is deity

You may have considered this already, but there are several Oriental Orthodox churches that originated in Palestine around 90 ad, mostly established through the early conversions of Jews to Christianity. Have you looked into their history and development, particularly with the nature of God? I assume you’d limit it to OO churches that didn’t mess around with Rome or with the ecumenical councils- which I think you could do pretty easily.

If so, what have you found? Is there any written tradition or catechism that the rest of us can look at right quick?

 

[Bballer32]

Jesus is from Mary and the Holy Spirit.

Ya, your point is?

35 And the angel said to her,

“The Holy Spirit will come upon you,
and the power of the Most High will overshadow you;
therefore the child to be born[h] will be called holy,
the Son of God.

 

[YiiNaa]

So, in other words, Jesus is only a prophet of God. I grant you that he was indeed a prophet (in fact, he is Priest, Prophet, and King), but in as far as you draw the line there and deny his divinity, that belief I do not share.

You don’t seemed to understand what i mean by agent.
This explains my view.

There is no doubt that Jesus is more than a prophet. He is the Son of God, the Son of Man, Prince of Peace, the Lamb of God, etc

My point is that if the Jewish law of agency is valid, a case can be made that Jesus is not God. I know Jesus did the work of God on earth (no doubt), but he proclaimed the one and only true God (Deut 6:4, John 17:3). I don’t see the need for a trinity, as it is a later non-biblical doctrine.

Maybe you do not know, but most Christians have a good knowledge of what this means and implies.

I didn’t know that, but here isn’t too much knowledge about this term in ancient jewish literature to draw strong conclusions about its meaning.

 

[JMJ_coder]

I’m a jewish rabbi living in Palestine that becomes a christian in 90AD. I’ve just read all the gospels.

I would naturally think that Jesus is the son of God, but I would not think he is deity

Answer me this, please. As a Jewish rabbit living in Palestine that just read all of the Gospels and became a Christian in 90 A.D., one who naturally thinks that Jesus is the Son of God, but does not think he is a deity - who would you reconcile your Jewish belief that being the Son of God makes one equal to God (and the Jews did believe that), but not a deity. How can one be equal to God and not be God?

 

[PRmerger]

If Jesus said the Shema, what is the need for a new doctrine on the nature of God?

Because it’s true.

Isn’t that really the only real reason to believe something?

We should accept Jewish doctrine instead of adding our own because Yeshua was Jewish

 

[Razanir]

Jesus is from Mary and the Holy Spirit.

“By the power of the Holy Spirit, he was incarnate of the Virgin Mary and became man.” -Nicene Creed

Catholics recite it every Mass. I think Lutherans also profess it (understanding that little-c catholic means universal). And I’d assume most Protestant groups would agree if you explained that little-c catholic just means universal.

I’ll respond to that later.

No need. I was merely responding to what I interpreted as a disbelief that it was from the Bible.

Jesus was not a trinitarian.

Defend?

When Jesus said “I AM” the Jews knew exactly what he meant enough to get very very angry. Jesus could have corrected your perceived misunderstanding and said “No, no I mean I was a plan”.

1st century Jews were incredibly good at that sort of thing. When he died on the cross, Jesus exclaimed “Eloi, eloi, lama sabachthani!” My God, my God, why have you forsakened me. To us, this sounds like utter despair. The 1st century Jewish audience, though, would have recognized it as the start of Psalm 22, which is actually quite joyful by the end. On a side note, Psalm 22 depicts the Crucifixion.

 

[PRmerger]

I’m a jewish rabbi living in Palestine that becomes a christian in 90AD. I’ve just read all the gospels.

I would naturally think that Jesus is the son of God, but I would not think he is deity

That is why you should not extract your doctrines from the Scriptures, YiiNaa.

Rather, you should receive your doctrines from the Church.

 

[chimo]

Hello guys, I’m new to this site and I hope I will be welcomed here nicely.

I was brought up an Anglican, and have been influenced by Catholics and Muslims respectively. This has helped my gain a decent understanding of their faith, and a better understanding of my own.

…

Recently (After watching debates to gain an even broader understanding of Christianity), I have looked at Scripture in a different light, and see no reason to believe that Jesus claimed to be God, and believe that God is tri-une in nature. I do still hold that Yeshua is our saviour, the Son of God, the Messiah, Lamb of God, etc

Is there any scripture that could convince me otherwise?

God bless you and have good day

The greatest claim that God is Trinity is what every person gets themselves into. What is that but your own family. Your family and every family on earth draws its own existence by the only Perfect model we know of, God. God is a family of three Divine Persons. When God decided to make man He used His own model to make ours visible. The most perfect example of a family representing the Holy Trinity is the Holy Family of Jesus, Mary and Joseph. Every member of each family represents one of the Divine Persons as does the Holy Family. Jesus of course represents Himself. Mary is representative of the Holy Spirit. St. Joseph is then representing the Eternal Father. Our mothers in each family is representative of the Holy Spirit, the fathers representing the Eternal Father and the children of course represents the Son of God. If you want to know a bit of what each Person of the Holy Trinity offers than look to your own family and the Holy Family. In the truest sense we cannot know ourselves on our own but only in relationships with others. You see Jesus never thinks about Himself but solely His Father. The Father thinks solely of His Son and never Himself. When love is perfected it never thinks of solely of itself but rather the other. Remember Paul’s words about love in its essence. Love suffers long and is kind. Love does not envy; love does not parade itself and is not puffed up; love does not behave rudely, does not seek its own, is not provoked, thinks no evil; does not rejoice in iniquity, but rejoices in the truth. In truth the apostle is talking about God. Yet these virtues cannot be given to one on its own. These virtues are acquired only in relationship with another. Perfect love thinks solely of the happiness of the other has for you. In Heaven we will all think solely of God who has granted this love to be perfected in us. Without this love in us we will have to wait until it is in us for us to see the beatific vision. In truth God has this within Himself as no Person of the Trinity will not love without loving solely the Person they are constantly in relationship with. Thus God could not love without been a Trinity. His true existence of been a Trinity and in relationship with each Person within is why He can love.

 

[YiiNaa]

I beg to differ!

Alpha and Omega create the letters in Hebrew “TEV” and “ALEF” which combined create the word “EMET” which translates to “Truth”

The word Emet according to Jewish custom is only applied to God. Therefore, when Christ spoke of being the Alpha and the Omega, the practicing Jew would have obviously been astounded to hear this since only God would be called this. Jesus would not say this to Blaspheme God if he were an agent like you claim. An agent of God would not call himself God because he knew that God was far superior to him. And so from our stand point, the only LOGICAL reason why Christ would call himself this was because he is God also!!! No agent of God would call himself that!

I was referring Alpha and Omega in a very literal form, but I see where you are coming from with EMET.

I could approach this in different ways:

First way
I think this was a title for God in the OT.
Jesus as the Son of Man was given dominion over all things,
Jesus is now the King of Kings and Lord of Lords.

Similar principle to calling Jesus EMET

Second way

This does not even affect agency. According to the law of agency, "A person’s shaliach is as he himself."

 

[pablope]

There is no doubt that Jesus is more than a prophet. He is the Son of God, the Son of Man, Prince of Peace, the Lamb of God, etc

 

[YiiNaa]

By the Holy Spirit Jesus was incarnate of the Virgin Mary. True.

Question - what is your viewpoint on the divinity of the Holy Spirit. If you deny the divinity of the Holy Spirit, then what do you say? Who, or what, is the Holy Spirit?

I hold that the Holy Spirit is a manifestation of God, not a “person”. Is the spirit of Elijah, a different person than Elijah?

However I wouldn’t have too much problem accepting that the Holy Spirit is a person.

 

[YiiNaa]

So if Jesus is the son of God…does this not then make Jesus also God?

If Jewish literature is invalid, how can Christianity be true?

Another question…who is the authority in Jewish world to determine waht is valid and what is not?

What do you mean by "valid "? If Christianity contradicted everything in the talmud, could Christianity be true?

Let me ask…are you Christian or not? Do you believe in all Christianity? I am asking because I am puzzled…all Christians believe Jesus is God…but you do not believe so.

I’m around the 10% of “Christians” that hold this position.

Another question…if the Jews rejected Jesus…what is the authority of the Jews to determine what is binding for a truly Christian or not?

I’m not saying the Jews have any authority, I’m saying their scriptures do. After all, they were God’s chosen ones so they must hold the original revelations from God.

Are you the authority to determine this or not? If not you, then who?

Can’t history determine this?

 

[JMJ_coder]

I didn’t know that, but here isn’t too much knowledge about this term in ancient jewish literature to draw strong conclusions about its meaning.

Our faith is not built only on ancient Jewish literature or Scripture. Remember that when Jesus came, he gave to the Apostles a new revelation and established a new and eternal covenant. This new revelation was completely unknown to the ancient Jews and fulfilled what had been promised. What was only foreshadowed and hinted at in typology, metaphor, and vagueness in the Old Testament has been made full and explicit in the New Testament.

Also remember, that not everything that Jesus said and did is written in the Scriptures. Much has been handed down through the oral teaching of the Apostles to our very day. It is maintained pure and undefiled by the protection of the Holy Spirit and to this day is still unblemished.

Now, as for the divinity of Jesus…the Church definitively answered this question some 1600 years ago. During the 4th century there rose an heresiarch named Arius who claimed, just as you do, that Jesus is not God. I think it would behoove you to look into the debates of that time to see what the arguments were that the Arians brought forth and how the Church answered them. Look at the Council of Nicea, and especially the writings of St. Athanasius (particularly On the Incarnation).

 

[JMJ_coder]

What do you mean by "valid "? If Christianity contradicted everything in the talmud, could Christianity be true?

Christianity is not based off of the Talmud. It’s not even used as a primary reference. What gave you that idea?

 

[pablope]

How so? According to your interpretation?

If Jewish literature is invalid, how can Christianity be true?

Which Jewish Literature?

What do you mean by "valid "? If Christianity contradicted everything in the talmud, could Christianity be true?

How does Christianity contradict the Talmud?

I’m around the 10% of “Christians” that hold this position.

So you are not truly “Christian” then…in the traditional sense of the term.

I’m not saying the Jews have any authority, I’m saying their scriptures do. After all, they were God’s chosen ones so they must hold the original revelations from God.

How does Scripture exercise authority? Can you demonstrate how Scripture exercises authority?

Quote:
I don’t see the need for a trinity, as it is a later non-biblical doctrine.

Are you the authority to determine this or not? If not you, then who?

Can’t history determine this?

How will history determine this? Can you provide a way for how history can accomplish this?

 

[JMJ_coder]

I hold that the Holy Spirit is a manifestation of God, not a “person”. Is the spirit of Elijah, a different person than Elijah?

However I wouldn’t have too much problem accepting that the Holy Spirit is a person.

In the case of Elijah, the spirit of Elijah seems to indicate a gift and charism of prophecy, but not a person or a soul.

In the case of the Holy Spirit, as proclaimed in the New Testament, the Holy Spirit does seem to be a person (cf. John 16:13).

So, we can agree that the Holy Spirit is indeed a person and not a thing. Good, that is at least a baby step. But, I am assuming given your non-trinitarian beliefs that you do not believe that the Holy Spirit is God. Is that correct?