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YiiNaa
Guest
What if I was a Jewish rabbi convert to Christianity that has access to any one of the synoptics?
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Razanir
Guest
CARM’s feeding you bad information. Those 7 books were in the Bible since an official canon was decided upon. Luther only took those books out during the Reformation because they didn’t have original Hebrew versions. At least, that’s the story I remember. Feel free to correct me if I’m wrong.
Ironically, though, we later found Hebrew versions of Sirach and Tobit in the Dead Sea Scrolls.
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YiiNaa
Guest
Personally, I do not view those books as very significant to christian theology.
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Razanir
Guest
I haven’t read any of them (Or most of the Bible, for that matter), but I know from Friends of all places that 1 Maccabees contains the story of Hanukkah. Admittedly it’s not a Christian holiday, but it’s something significant from deuterocanon, at least.
scripturecatholic.com/deuterocanon.html
Highlights:
Matt. 12:42 - Jesus refers to the wisdom of Solomon which was recorded and made part of the deuterocanonical books.
Matt. 24:16 - let those “flee to the mountains” is taken from 1 Macc. 2:28.
Luke 21:24 - Jesus’ usage of “fall by the edge of the sword” follows Sirach 28:18.
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Ireth
Guest
I think Razinir hit it on the head with John 1:18. All of the other scriptures that people have posted also make much more sense in light of Jesus being God than the other way around.
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YiiNaa
Guest
I don’t agree with you here. From most of the translations of the verse, there is no trinitarian argument
The translations here
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JMJ_coder
Guest
Then who should decide. What if I said that I think that none of the Old Testament is significant to Christian theology and only the Gospel of John, Nicodemus, and the Epistle of Clement to the Corinthians are really of any consequence for our understanding.
Why don’t we, like Martin Luther wanted, throw away more books of the Bible, like the Letter of James? Why aren’t the works of the Apostolic Fathers in Scripture, like the works of Clement or the Didache included? Why can’t we have new books added, like the Mormons do, even to this day?
What authority do we look to for what we consider to be divinely inspired? And if we look to that authority for something as significant as which books to include, why ignore what said authority has to say on other topics, particularly what the included books really mean and how they should be interpreted?
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PRmerger
Guest
Could you please just summarize your argument as to how you can know that the books of the Bible are inspired?
And that website doesn’t address at all how it is you know that the canon of the NT is the Word of God.
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JMJ_coder
Guest
But, instead of correcting their misunderstanding, Jesus confirms that they heard right the first time. Just like in the Bread of Life discourse in John 6. If it were a misunderstanding, Jesus would have been morally obligated to correct the listeners as they are turning away from what they understand him to be saying, which is ‘you must eat my flesh and drink my blood’. But does Jesus call out and plead, ‘I don’t mean you must be cannibals’…no, he turns to the apostles and asks ‘will you leave me too?’. There is no misunderstanding that he actually means he will be giving his flesh and blood as real food and real drink and there is no misunderstanding that he actually means he is the Son of God and claims equality with God with such a title.
[basic trial discourse from the three synoptic Gospels]
Caiaphas: Are you the Son of God?
Jesus: I am!
Caiaphas: He’s a blasphemer, crucify him!
Indeed, there is no place in the New Testament where the Tetragrammation is used at all. Do you think God is not present at all in the New Testament?
Even "“took those books out” is overstating. Luther’s translation includes all of them.
I will say, however, that I appreciate your presentation here, as it more accurately reflects Luther’s view of them being disputed, instead of the approach that says Luther didn’t like what they said.
Jon
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Razanir
Guest
Nah, I know the bit about him leaving them in, just not thinking they were divinely inspired. It just slipped my mind while reacting to CARM. On a brief side note, though, (directed at JonNC) what do you think he would have done had we had the Dead Sea Scrolls back then? One of my friends who’s Lutheran suspects that Luther actually would have kept Sirach and Tobit inEven "“took those books out” is overstating. Luther’s translation includes all of them.
I will say, however, that I appreciate your presentation here, as it more accurately reflects Luther’s view of them being disputed, instead of the approach that says Luther didn’t like what they said.
Jon
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YiiNaa
Guest
1.You seem to be comparing John 10:33 were the Jews misunderstood him, and John 6 where they did understand. My point was that most of the time the Jews did not understand Jesus.
2.Son of a God at best is a messianic title, and does not imply co-equality with God. Jews have historically seen it this way, so we should understand that there is a dfference betwen God the son, and Son of God.
Lemme give you a quote from the jewish encylopedia on the son of. god
3.I’m sure that YHVH would have appeared in the original manuscripts, and would have been translated as Lord.
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JMJ_coder
Guest
On the one hand, you claim that because Jesus used the title Son of God, the Jews naturally believed that Jesus made a claim of equality with God. And yet on the other hand, you claim that for the Jews at that time, the title Son of God did not mean equality with God. Can you explain this contradiction?
Aside from Matthew, which had a version in Aramaic, the entire New Testament was written in Greek. The point is that you cannot make an assertion against Jesus not being addressed with the Tetragrammation since it is not used period in the New Testament.
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GaryTaylor
Guest
John 16:15 All things whatsoever the Father hath, are mine
Revelation 22
1 Then the angel showed me the river of the water of life, as clear as crystal, flowing from the throne of God and of the Lamb 2 down the middle of the great street of the city. On each side of the river stood the tree of life, bearing twelve crops of fruit, yielding its fruit every month. And the leaves of the tree are for the healing of the nations. 3 No longer will there be any curse. The throne of God and of the Lamb will be in the city, and his servants will serve him. 4 They will see his face, and his name will be on their foreheads. 5 There will be no more night. They will not need the light of a lamp or the light of the sun, for the Lord God will give them light. And they will reign for ever and ever. 6 The angel said to me, “These words are trustworthy and true. The Lord, the God of the spirits of the prophets, sent his angel to show his servants the things that must soon take place.”
Jesus Is Coming
7 “Behold, I am coming soon! Blessed is he who keeps the words of the prophecy in this book.” 8 I, John, am the one who heard and saw these things. And when I had heard and seen them, I fell down to worship at the feet of the angel who had been showing them to me. 9 But he said to me, “Do not do it! I am a fellow servant with you and with your brothers the prophets and of all who keep the words of this book. Worship God!” 10 Then he told me, “Do not seal up the words of the prophecy of this book, because the time is near. 11 Let him who does wrong continue to do wrong; let him who is vile continue to be vile; let him who does right continue to do right; and let him who is holy continue to be holy.” 12 "Behold, I am coming soon! My reward is with me, and I will give to everyone according to what he has done. 13 I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End. 14 "Blessed are those who wash their robes, that they may have the right to the tree of life and may go through the gates into the city. 15 Outside are the dogs, those who practice magic arts, the sexually immoral, the murderers, the idolaters and everyone who loves and practices falsehood. 16 “I, Jesus, have sent my angel to give you this testimony for the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, and the bright Morning Star.” 17 The Spirit and the bride say, “Come!” And let him who hears say, “Come!” Whoever is thirsty, let him come; and whoever wishes, let him take the free gift of the water of life. 18 I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: If anyone adds anything to them, God will add to him the plagues described in this book. 19 And if anyone takes words away from this book of prophecy, God will take away from him his share in the tree of life and in the holy city, which are described in this book. 20 He who testifies to these things says, “Yes, I am coming soon.” Amen. Come, Lord Jesus. 21 The grace of the Lord Jesus be with God’s people. Amen.
Revelation 22
1 Then the angel showed me the river of the water of life, as clear as crystal, flowing from the throne of God and of the Lamb 2 down the middle of the great street of the city. On each side of the river stood the tree of life, bearing twelve crops of fruit, yielding its fruit every month. And the leaves of the tree are for the healing of the nations. 3 No longer will there be any curse. The throne of God and of the Lamb will be in the city, and his servants will serve him. 4 They will see his face, and his name will be on their foreheads. 5 There will be no more night. They will not need the light of a lamp or the light of the sun, for the Lord God will give them light. And they will reign for ever and ever. 6 The angel said to me, “These words are trustworthy and true. The Lord, the God of the spirits of the prophets, sent his angel to show his servants the things that must soon take place.”
Jesus Is Coming
7 “Behold, I am coming soon! Blessed is he who keeps the words of the prophecy in this book.” 8 I, John, am the one who heard and saw these things. And when I had heard and seen them, I fell down to worship at the feet of the angel who had been showing them to me. 9 But he said to me, “Do not do it! I am a fellow servant with you and with your brothers the prophets and of all who keep the words of this book. Worship God!” 10 Then he told me, “Do not seal up the words of the prophecy of this book, because the time is near. 11 Let him who does wrong continue to do wrong; let him who is vile continue to be vile; let him who does right continue to do right; and let him who is holy continue to be holy.” 12 "Behold, I am coming soon! My reward is with me, and I will give to everyone according to what he has done. 13 I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End. 14 "Blessed are those who wash their robes, that they may have the right to the tree of life and may go through the gates into the city. 15 Outside are the dogs, those who practice magic arts, the sexually immoral, the murderers, the idolaters and everyone who loves and practices falsehood. 16 “I, Jesus, have sent my angel to give you this testimony for the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, and the bright Morning Star.” 17 The Spirit and the bride say, “Come!” And let him who hears say, “Come!” Whoever is thirsty, let him come; and whoever wishes, let him take the free gift of the water of life. 18 I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: If anyone adds anything to them, God will add to him the plagues described in this book. 19 And if anyone takes words away from this book of prophecy, God will take away from him his share in the tree of life and in the holy city, which are described in this book. 20 He who testifies to these things says, “Yes, I am coming soon.” Amen. Come, Lord Jesus. 21 The grace of the Lord Jesus be with God’s people. Amen.
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YiiNaa
Guest
- Jesus denied claiming equality with god (John 10:34)
- The Jews might [at the time] have believed that son of god meant equality with god because it is an exclusive term
- Now Jew today would tell you that son of god in any of their literature means equality with god
1.Why cant I make this assertion? The Tetragrammation was translated as Kyrios(or so) which means lord.
2.Replace LORD with YHVH anywhere in the NT and tell me that it would be refering to Jesus.
3.We both know that Jesus is not called YHVH, so you shouldn’t really push forward this point.
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YiiNaa
Guest
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PRmerger
Guest
Hi, Yii!
I know that there are lots of posts to respond to, but could you please address my question: how is it that you know that the NT canon is inspired, without submitting to the authority of the Catholic Church, which discerned this for you?
Please answer in your own words, not citing another website. (The one that you cited earlier did not even address my question, BTW.). Thanks.
I know that there are lots of posts to respond to, but could you please address my question: how is it that you know that the NT canon is inspired, without submitting to the authority of the Catholic Church, which discerned this for you?
Please answer in your own words, not citing another website. (The one that you cited earlier did not even address my question, BTW.). Thanks.
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GaryTaylor
Guest
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YiiNaa
Guest
Because the books outside the canon are not significantly important.
That’s like asking me “If you submit to the OT canon, why don’t you submit to Judaism”
*My name is YiiNaa btw
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PRmerger
Guest
I don’t understand how you know what’s “significantly important”. Is there something you already know from other sources, then you read the “books outside the canon” and what they tell you is trivial?Because the books outside the canon are not significantly important.
That’s like asking me “If you submit to the OT canon, why don’t you submit to Judaism”
*My name is YiiNaa btw
Please elaborate.
Apologies to not using your full name, YiiNaa. You may call me PR.
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