Troy Davis makes final appeal before execution

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Tsuwano said:
Very well, then. I personally call for clemency for Mr.Lawrence Brewer. I pray that he will not be put to death by anyone in my name. I support Mr. Brewer’s continued incarceration for his crime, but I do not support the death penalty for any person.
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Remember that he is a member of a white supremacist gang that operates in the prisons as well as on the outside. (Might be the Aryan Brotherhood, but I don’t know that for a fact. Sounds like it though.) It’s reasonable to assume he would continue in that relationship if his sentence was commuted to life imprisonment or some shorter term. I think you and Rich would want to consider that, as well as the violent and criminal nature of such groups in prisons and out of prison in making your argument against his execution.

Just looked it up. Yes, he was with the Aryan Brotherhood in prison. Among other crimes, the Aryan Brotherhood conducts assaults and murders in prison and has the power to order them on the outside as well.

Your turn, guys.
 
Tsuwano said:
Very well, then. I personally call for clemency for Mr.Lawrence Brewer. I pray that he will not be put to death by anyone in my name. I support Mr. Brewer’s continued incarceration for his crime, but I do not support the death penalty for any person.
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Ditto!
 
Ridgerunner said:
Remember that he is a member of a white supremacist gang that operates in the prisons as well as on the outside. (Might be the Aryan Brotherhood, but I don’t know that for a fact. Sounds like it though.) It’s reasonable to assume he would continue in that relationship if his sentence was commuted to life imprisonment or some shorter term. I think you and Rich would want to consider that, as well as the violent and criminal nature of such groups in prisons and out of prison in making your argument against his execution.

Just looked it up. Yes, he was with the Aryan Brotherhood in prison. Among other crimes, the Aryan Brotherhood conducts assaults and murders in prison and has the power to order them on the outside as well.

Your turn, guys.
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Hi,

Would solitary confinement not ne the answer to this? Does it have to be execution? Would you also execute the other members of this group to make sure the message gets out?
 
Ridgerunner said:
Remember that he is a member of a white supremacist gang that operates in the prisons as well as on the outside. (Might be the Aryan Brotherhood, but I don’t know that for a fact. Sounds like it though.) It’s reasonable to assume he would continue in that relationship if his sentence was commuted to life imprisonment or some shorter term. I think you and Rich would want to consider that, as well as the violent and criminal nature of such groups in prisons and out of prison in making your argument against his execution.

Just looked it up. Yes, he was with the Aryan Brotherhood in prison. Among other crimes, the Aryan Brotherhood conducts assaults and murders in prison and has the power to order them on the outside as well.

Your turn, guys.
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Do you seriously think that those who oppose the death penalty do so because of the convict or the crime he committed?

The opposition covers everybody and irrespective of the crime committed!

The belief is that, only the sole giver of life has the right to take way any life! He takes no pleasure in the death of the wicked.
 
Tsuwano said:
Yes, but from what I understand, Troy Davis may not in fact be the criminal responsible for the murder of this woman’s son. If justice is to be done, it can’t be done by executing a man who may be innocent. I also beg to differ as to whether we have a right to encourage this woman to forgive the killer of her son. I believe our faith and our witness to the mercy and forgiveness offered by Jesus Christ do give us the right to encourage others to forgive. This right does not come from arrogance, but from the knowledge that we, who are sinners, are also forgiven.
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There is no doubt of his guilt for both murders.

I agree, I hope that people can find it in their hearts to forgive him for his crimes, but he still have a debt to society to pay.
 
SamH said:
There is no doubt of his guilt for both murders.

I agree, I hope that people can find it in their hearts to forgive him for his crimes, but he still have a debt to society to pay.
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He does, and the shepherds, including the Vicar of Christ, believe that he should pay this debt spending his life in prison.

In any case, it isn’t looking so good for Mr. Davis so I pray that God receives him into His kingdom.
 
Benjamin12 said:
Hi,

Would solitary confinement not ne the answer to this? Does it have to be execution? Would you also execute the other members of this group to make sure the message gets out?
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The other members might have been sentenced to death as well. I don’t know about them. But speaking only of Brewer. As a member of the Aryan Brotherhood, it’s imaginable that if he was put into a supermax prison, he could do no harm. But there aren’t enough of those for every person like him. So, more likely he would be in a general population. But, being of the AB, he would be a continuous threat to everyone else in the population as well as to people outside the prison. That’s the nature of the AB. Extraordinarily violent.

So, understanding that if his sentence was commuted to life imprisonment, he would almost certainly pose a fundamentally unrestrained and unrepentent threat of harm or death to others in that circumstance, do you still want him spared. And if so, please explain how you justify this.

We can probably stipulate that this country should have more supermax prisons, but we don’t, so do you commute his sentence or not, knowing that prison would be no deterrent to further violence on his part?
 
Ridgerunner said:
The other members might have been sentenced to death as well. I don’t know about them. But speaking only of Brewer. As a member of the Aryan Brotherhood, it’s imaginable that if he was put into a supermax prison, he could do no harm. But there aren’t enough of those for every person like him. So, more likely he would be in a general population. But, being of the AB, he would be a continuous threat to everyone else in the population as well as to people outside the prison. That’s the nature of the AB. Extraordinarily violent.

So, understanding that if his sentence was commuted to life imprisonment, he would almost certainly pose a fundamentally unrestrained and unrepentent threat of harm or death to others in that circumstance, do you still want him spared. And if so, please explain how you justify this.

We can probably stipulate that this country should have more supermax prisons, but we don’t, so do you commute his sentence or not, knowing that prison would be no deterrent to further violence on his part?
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The life-saving solution is indeed life-imprisonment in solitary confinement without possibilyt of parole. It is as simple, and difficult, as that. In the U.S., behaviors driven by emotion and politics continue to outweigh behaviors reasonably informed by the Bible, the Catechism, and even the Constitution.
 
I haven’t heard enough about this case… so I have some questions for those ho have followed it.

7 out of 9 witnesses recanted their stories… does that change the ‘guilt’ of Mr Davis?

What evidence is left if those 7 peoples testimony is thrown out.?
 
Ridgerunner said:
I see where Lawrence Brewer, one of the men who dragged that black man to death some years ago behind a pickup truck, is set for execution within a week. One supposes your argument would apply to him as well. Interesting, though, that I have yet to see pleas for clemency for him, either here or in the media.

Well, I guess Robert Byrd’s son did.
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My views stand if the convicted is young or old, man or woman, innocent or guilty, black or white or (insert race)…This is not about emotion, affiliation or ideology. God is the only arbiter of life - ALL human life.
 
PGK2505 said:
The life-saving solution is indeed life-imprisonment in solitary confinement without possibilyt of parole. It is as simple, and difficult, as that. In the U.S., behaviors driven by emotion and politics continue to outweigh behaviors reasonably informed by the Bible, the Catechism, and even the Constitution.
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But is it the life-saving solution? The Aryan Brotherhood conducts assaults and murders in prison, and murders outside prison are ordered by members of that group who are in prison. Brewer, as mentioned before, is a member of that group and is totally unrepentent.His victim’s only offenses to Brewer were being black and being vulnerable.

It is not presently possible to put everybody in solitary confinement, and even some of them are able to communicate with the outside.

So the real question here is whether, in the absence of supermax facilities for every dangerous prisoner (and even that can fail, and has) do we care about deterrence enough to execute people who cannot be deterred from assaults, rapes and murders any other way, and who pose a great risk of it? Or, in order to avoid ever executing anyone, do we just run the risk of death or serious bodily harm they pose to others as the price of saving their lives?
 
Ridgerunner said:
But is it the life-saving solution? The Aryan Brotherhood conducts assaults and murders in prison, and murders outside prison are ordered by members of that group who are in prison. Brewer, as mentioned before, is a member of that group and is totally unrepentent.His victim’s only offenses to Brewer were being black and being vulnerable.

It is not presently possible to put everybody in solitary confinement, and even some of them are able to communicate with the outside.

So the real question here is whether, in the absence of supermax facilities for every dangerous prisoner (and even that can fail, and has) do we care about deterrence enough to execute people who cannot be deterred from assaults, rapes and murders any other way, and who pose a great risk of it? Or, in order to avoid ever executing anyone, do we just run the risk of death or serious bodily harm they pose to others as the price of saving their lives?
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I honestly don’t see execution deterring anything except the drawing of breath. What prevents a member of such gangs from drawing up a hit list before he is executed? Will his death end the group’s existence or activities?

As for the existence (or lack) of appropriate facilities, my views are pretty off-the-wall I would imagine. In my world, all prisoners would be assigned full workdays at some useful occupation while incarcerated, to earn their keep (and even contribute to child/family support if possible) unless they are too dangerous to let out of solitary. The less dangerous prisoners would build (and help maintain) the facilities for more dangerous ones. No place of incarceration (with particular reference to juvenile detention facilities) would be run by private interests, so that locking people up would not constitute an opportunity for anyone to profit. Prison would not be a vacation but the demands would be a function of the crime committed, the duration of imprisonment and the prisoner’s behaviour. Success of rehabilitation would be assessed before release, perhaps in a transitional facility. In my world, prison would not be a cakewalk, it would be a chance (for most) to reverse direction or to be assigned to prolonged or permanent exclusion from free society.
 
Ridgerunner said:
The Aryan Brotherhood conducts assaults and murders in prison, and murders outside prison are ordered by members of that group who are in prison.
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Since we cannot insure the safety of the people even though these criminals are in prison, then there is no real choice, they must be put to death.

What evidence do we have that Troy Davis is a danger to society from inside prison?
What purpose does his death serve? Whose life is in danger from him?
 
vz71 said:
Since we cannot insure the safety of the people even though these criminals are in prison, then there is no real choice, they must be put to death.

What evidence do we have that Troy Davis is a danger to society from inside prison?
What purpose does his death serve? Whose life is in danger from him?
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We cant ensure the saftey of a lot of things in society, For instance: Weed whackers, A weed whacker will seriously maim someone this year, the people who make weed wackers knows this, the govt knows this too. Do we not make weed whackers? NO we incentivize saftey through products liabilitiys in order to protect the public and are willing to let the seriously injured or killed meet their fate for the sake of progress.

Why not invest more in prison reform and understand that some people are going to be killed in the process of permanant incarceration? Its not like life imprisonment is a luxory we cant afford, the US does not kill ultra-dangerous crazy people who threaten fellow mentally ill patients/ facility employees.
 
Ridgerunner said:
But is it the life-saving solution? The Aryan Brotherhood conducts assaults and murders in prison, and murders outside prison are ordered by members of that group who are in prison. Brewer, as mentioned before, is a member of that group and is totally unrepentent.His victim’s only offenses to Brewer were being black and being vulnerable.

It is not presently possible to put everybody in solitary confinement, and even some of them are able to communicate with the outside.

So the real question here is whether, in the absence of supermax facilities for every dangerous prisoner (and even that can fail, and has) do we care about deterrence enough to execute people who cannot be deterred from assaults, rapes and murders any other way, and who pose a great risk of it? Or, in order to avoid ever executing anyone, do we just run the risk of death or serious bodily harm they pose to others as the price of saving their lives?
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In my opinion, the question of the matter is not Troy Davis or the Aryan Brotherhood, but the death penalty. To draw a comparison, pro-choice advocates would have us believe that the crux of the abortion issue is about rape, incest, and the safety of the pregnant mother in risky pregnacies. We all know the issue is abortion and saving lives. Another (and probably a more fair) comparison would be to think about this in terms of preemptive warfare strikes. Take Iran…there is a great likelihood based on previous behaviors that future behaviors will be aggressive either through direct warfare against the U.S. or through the harboring of anti-U.S. terrorists. We do not have the moral foundation to strike them until we are directly saving lives. In the case of crime and punishment, we, as states and as a nation CAN put people into solitary confinement and keep them from communicating with the outside world. The fact that it isn’t being done doesn’t mean it shouldn’t or can’t be done.

As a side note, in gangs such as the Aryan Brotherhood, having a member put to death creates a martyr. I can’t see that the mythologizing of a character as high profile as Troy Davis is actually going to save lives. Keep in prison and silence him there. Every appeal we give him because of our death penalty processes is an opportunity for his voice to be heard and for hatred to be spread from within the prison walls.
 
I really think it does the wrongly convicted a disservice to conflate opposition to the death penalty and the issue of innocence. By insisting that everyone facing execution is innocent, it makes it difficult for cases where there is real doubt to receive the necessary attention. I think that’s what may have happened here.
 
SamH said:
Two convictions for murder.
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SO? we have crazy people who have killed more individuals who are kept alive in state run institutions. If we dont kill those guys, then why are we going to kill this guy?
 
seekerz said:
I honestly don’t see execution deterring anything except the drawing of breath. What prevents a member of such gangs from drawing up a hit list before he is executed? Will his death end the group’s existence or activities?

As for the existence (or lack) of appropriate facilities, my views are pretty off-the-wall I would imagine. In my world, all prisoners would be assigned full workdays at some useful occupation while incarcerated, to earn their keep (and even contribute to child/family support if possible) unless they are too dangerous to let out of solitary. The less dangerous prisoners would build (and help maintain) the facilities for more dangerous ones. No place of incarceration (with particular reference to juvenile detention facilities) would be run by private interests, so that locking people up would not constitute an opportunity for anyone to profit. Prison would not be a vacation but the demands would be a function of the crime committed, the duration of imprisonment and the prisoner’s behaviour. Success of rehabilitation would be assessed before release, perhaps in a transitional facility. In my world, prison would not be a cakewalk, it would be a chance (for most) to reverse direction or to be assigned to prolonged or permanent exclusion from free society.
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There are all sorts of systems we could think up. But truly secure prisons are not what we have. I’m talking about the here and now. If a truly psychopathic killer, particularly one who is utterly unrepentant, and even more particularly one who is with the Aryan Brotherhood, a very violent and deadly organization, is there any way, in reality (not ideally or fantastically) to deter THAT PERSON from killing or maiming or raping in the future, short of capital punishment?

Maybe supermax prisons for every dangerous prisoner in America (and that’s lots of them) would do it, but that’s not what we have or what we’re at all likely to have.

It seems then, for some criminals, the only way to truly protect the innocent potential victims is capital punishment.

I’m not defending capital punishment. I personally oppose it (as I said before, only because JPII did, and I oppose it out of reverence for him alone), but I am pointing out that there is a problem with carte blanche condemnation of it. And that problem is that prison is not an effective deterrent to many of worst criminals. And if it isn’t, are we not making the innocent pay for the crimes of the guilty? Are we not failing in a moral duty to protect potential victims?
 
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