Trump’s New Wall to Keep Out the Disabled

[Metis1]

Anyone who supports Trump’s “solution” of separating children from their parents and then putting them in cages and yet still “think” that this is somehow moral is delusional. Civilized countries do not do that. Christians living by the gospel do not do that. Observant Catholics do not do that.

There have been times, including recently, whereas sometimes children had to be separated from a parent because they are going through a criminal process. But nothing on this scale we’re seeing has ever been done before here in the States.

The idea that this is somehow the parent’s fault is utterly depraved nonsense. El Salvador, to use that country as an example, is the most dangerous country in the world according to U.N. stats. It has massive amounts of corruption with malicious gangs ravaging the country, often with the government’s “blessing”. It is terribly impoverished with no safety net and with no indication that conditions will improve. Can any moral person blame the parents for trying to rake their children out of the country?

To blame parents for trying to get out with their children is malicious, and the Pope and the bishops have repeatedly spoken about this and has asked countries to try and do their best to help out any way they can. But Trump & Co and his supporters are not interested. They have slow-waked the refugee applications, thus leading to these refugees trying desperately to sneak in other ways, which largely is what led to the death of the 7 year old girl who was suffering from dehydration.

The Trump “solution”, parroted by his followers, is this: blame the parents and even if the kids die, blame the parents? This reaction is disgustingly depraved, thus hardly an observant Catholic response. There are various ways in which the U.S. can help and should, imo. But this administration is not interested in anything but spending billions to built the wall that Trump repeatedly promised Mexico would pay for that all too many Americans were so foolish enough to fall for even after the Mexican government said in no way would they do that.

Ignorance has its consequences, but the Bible says that so does depravity.

 

[MonteRCMS]

Started with Obama.

Obama’s policy.

But you need to make sure the adults are actually the parents and not merely human traffickers.

 

[13pollitos]

The issue of corrupt government is symptomatic of the problem, not the cause of the problem.

Actually it is both a symptom AND a cause. Not the only cause, but to deny it is one of the causes is unreasonable.

You bring up many good points. I think you and I would most likely agree about most of them if it were possible to sit and speak, rather than try to do so over text.

I especially agree with the points about multinationals and land owners keeping the population in poverty. It’s a very complex situation and not an easy fix.

 

[Metis1]

Thanks for your response, and I do believe I overstated my case. You’re correct as corruption can indeed be a cause. Based on what you wrote, I think we’re pretty much on the same page here.

Take care.

 

[Metis1]

The idea of older children during Obama’s tenure has already been explained as being essential under the condition because of a federal law that prohibits putting children in jail or prison with their parents in most cases. Therefore, equating what he did versus what’s happening under Trump is strictly a false equivalency. Even the commissioner of the Border Patrol said over the weekend that they were and are ill-equipped to handle all these children, especially the young ones. He also said they need more money for more personnel and better technology to handle this situation.

We also know that the administration has been “slow-walking” the applications for refugee status, and we also know that this administration has done next to nothing to help this situation, whereas there were and are various options they had and have at their disposal.

I wonder if those who somehow excuse this lack of compassion for these refugees would say the same if their own children were taken from them with the possibility that they may never see them again? I hardly think so.

If there is a doubt that I’m correct on this, maybe check out what the bishops and the Pope has said on this matter. Maybe actually spend a few minutes and google this. The USCCB well recognizes that it is unethical to use children and refugees as political pawns and have said as such.

BTW, because I’ve seen some people here say this, my position is not in any way partisan as I don’t simply give anyone in any party or no party at all a free ride when it comes to unethical behavior.

BTW, anyone hear or read whereas Trump appointee Mulvaney said that Trump is “a terrible human being”? For some reason it seems that Trump is having a hard time finding replacements-- gee, I wonder why?

 

[MonteRCMS]

Leave your child in a hot car for an hour in Florida while you shop and you go to jail. Drag your child 200 miles across the rattlesnake and criminal infested Sonoran desert in 120° heat for a week, provide neither food nor water, commit a felony in the process and enter a foreign country illegally where the child dies from dehydration…win $10 million!

Trump Border Wall Showdown – The American Spectator | USA News and Politics

Congressional Democrats are butting heads with President Trump over his demand for $5 billion to continue building a wall along the southern border. Rep. Nancy Pelosi vows not one dollar will go for a wall. She calls the idea of a wall “immoral.” Not building the wall is what’s truly…

spectator.org

Right now, newly arrived legal immigrants who earn little or nothing are eligible for fully subsidized Obamacare plans, with taxpayers paying the entire bill, even for copays and deductibles. And 6.8 million children of immigrants are enrolled in Medicaid, according to the Urban Institute. Meanwhile, millions of American-born taxpayers who fund this give-away to newcomers are going without insurance themselves, because they can’t afford it.

90% reduction.

Communities divided by the border are already split up.

 

[Ridgerunner]

Anyone who supports Trump’s “solution” of separating children from their parents and then putting them in cages and yet still “think” that this is somehow moral is delusional. Civilized countries do not do that. Christians living by the gospel do not do that. Observant Catholics do not do that.

It wasn’t Trump’s “solution”. It was the solution of the Ninth Circuit Court of Appeals that ruled against the Obama administration’s holding illegal adults with children. The Trump administration was simply following the order of the Ninth Circuit, by holding adults in ICE facilities which are “law enforcement” and holding minors (not all were children) in HHS facilities, which are welfare. Of course, many of the minors were not the children of the adults. Some of the adults were known child traffickers.

In any event, the Ninth Circuit decided it was not appropriate to keep the adults with the minors. Since that caused a firestorm of criticism against the administration (not the Ninth Circuit) the administration just went to “catch and release”. Few ever return.

Any illegals who came in regular ports of entry and claimed asylum were actually released and put on welfare at taxpayer expense. Those who avoided the ports of entry and sneaked in by non-legal means and only claimed asylum when they were caught were the only ones who were held at all.

The Ninth Circuit has essentially determined illegal immigrant policy as regards minors for years in a series of holdings known as the “Flores” decisions.

 

[Metis1]

This was a problem created and abetted by this administration, so maybe read these sources: Separation at the border: children wait in cages at south Texas warehouse | US immigration | The Guardian

Trump migrant separation policy: Children 'in cages' in Texas

 

[vsedriver]

are those cages or chain linked partitions? Language can easily be abused to shade a story to lean either left or right.

chain linked partitions are used on children’s playgrounds. Are those children also ‘caged’?

they are being detained because they entered the country illegally. This is what ‘containment’ looks like. It is temporary and most are moved with in a day or two. To blow it out of proportion is solely to appeal to emotion, to make the current administration look bad, and to sway voters.

By the way, it is very effective on an emotional level but once you look at the problem of it in a rational setting it becomes much ado about nothing.

 

[Metis1]

are those cages or chain linked partitions? Language can easily be abused to shade a story to lean either left or right.

chain linked partitions are used on children’s playgrounds. Are those children also ‘caged’?

they are being detained because they entered the country illegally. This is what ‘containment’ looks like. It is temporary and most are moved with in a day or two. To blow it out of proportion is solely to appeal to emotion, to make the current administration look bad, and to sway voters.

By the way, it is very effective on an emotional level but once you look at the problem of it in a rational setting it becomes much ado about nothing.

My links showed what they are like.

Secondly, they are not here “illegally” unless a court says so as our laws allow for refugee status even if they were not to come in through legal ports or gates of entry.

Thirdly, I made it clear that this is not a partisan issue with me by any stretch of the imagination, and it seems to me that what you have posted is just a matter of your “projection”. I have been involved with this issue for around three decades now. How about you?

Fourthly, most are not moved in “a day or two”, so you’ve fabricated another story. Multiple thousands are in such facilities or in tents.

Fifth, would you be so cavalier if your kids were separated from you with the realization that you might not see them again? Have you no compassion whatsoever for the refugees who have already suffered so much?

Finally, if you think I’m hyping this up, maybe take a look at the last issue of “America” magazine (Catholic) and see what the bishops and Pope has been saying. Some previous issues have dealt with reports from those who have personally seen what’s going on.

 

[vsedriver]

My links showed what they are like.

ok, I saw the same visuals. I do not see cages. YMMV

Secondly, they are not here “illegally” unless a court says so

if you cross the border into this country without legal permission you are here ‘illegally’. The court only determines if you can stay after determining if you qualify as a refugee. You can be a refugee and still be here illegally.

Thirdly, I made it clear that this is not a partisan issue with me

it’s not a partisan issue with me either. Congress doesn’t want to touch immigration with a 10 foot pole, no matter which party is in charge. But the laws in place should be followed and I see nothing wrong with securing our border to discourage people from trying to just walk into the country.

Fourthly, most are not moved in “a day or two”, so you’ve fabricated another story

this is a recent change. They no longer do the ‘catch and release’. Now they can’t leave until they see a judge. But I have no problem with people being detained until vetted and allowed to either enter or be deported. And volume will slow the process, all the more reason to discourage illegal immigration and reform legal immigration.

Fifth, would you be so cavalier if your kids were separated from you with the realization that you might not see them again?

I’m not being cavalier. I’m a pragmatist. As a pragmatist, I would assess the risk and the consequences of the choices I make. I’m not sure how you could be separated from your children and never see them for the rest of your life. I’m not aware of any immigration programs where the kids are kept in the US and the parents deported. Nor am I aware of the kids being deported but the parent allowed to stay. I know that in the past the immigration detention centers were not allowed to keep children for two long and that they went into other social service situations or released to relatives. So I’m not sure how that separates families permanently.

I do have compassion, which is why I want better laws and methods for dealing with illegal immigrants. But the default setting on illegal immigrant isn’t ‘refugee’. And I think that is the real problem here. They are all illegal immigrants until their status can be determined. As such they should be contained but treated as human beings with dignity. If facilities are inadequate to handle the problem then it is up to the local officials and federal officials to make the changes.

 

[Ridgerunner]

Those facilities are temporary. From the article:

“People are supposed to move through the facility quickly. Under US law, children are required to be turned over within three days to shelters funded by the Department of Health and Human Services.”

But the separation of minors (and a lot of them are not really “children”) from adults is not something the Trump administration came up with. It was ordered by the Ninth Circuit Court of Appeals. Look up the “Flores” decisions, and you’ll see.

 

[John24]

What the the Trump administration came up with was their evil zero-tolerance policy in an effort to take children from their parents as a deterrent to future migrants. The Attorney General of the United States and at least one other cabinet member along with numerous other administration officials made public statements confirming that taking children from their parents was the desired outcome of the zero tolerance policy.

 

[MikeInVA]

they are not here “illegally” unless a court says so

So if I drivethrough a red light and don’t get a ticket I didn’t break the law?

 

[Metis1]

What the the Trump administration came up with was their evil zero-tolerance policy in an effort to take children from their parents as a deterrent to future migrants. The Attorney General of the United States and at least one other cabinet member along with numerous other administration officials made public statements confirming that taking children from their parents was the desired outcome of the zero tolerance policy.

Yes, that is exactly what they did as they slow-walked this, including not bringing in more lawyers to hear these cases. Trump and Nielsen both made it clear that this was being done to be a deterrent for others.

 

[Metis1]

So if I drivethrough a red light and don’t get a ticket I didn’t break the law?

Technically you didn’t since you can have a day in court.

In regards to the issue of dealing with refugees, both international and U.S. law has it that a refugee has certain rights and can have a hearing to determine what will happen next as we do recognize refugee status here.

 

[MonteRCMS]

In regards to the issue of dealing with refugees, both international and U.S. law has it that a refugee has certain rights and can have a hearing to determine what will happen next as we do recognize refugee status here.

But refugees are supposed to go to the NEAREST country … which is Belize. Or Mexico.

If Capitalism is evil, and Socialism is good, then that would be the world’s wealthiest oil country, Venezuela.

 

[Metis1]

BTW, I think a couple of people here need to answer this question, namely why would they ignore the positions stipulated by both the Pope and the USCCB on this issue? Don’t their opinions count on moral issues like this?

And if one dissents from their opinions on this matter, on which moral basis are they doing this being based on?

 

[Ridgerunner]

What the the Trump administration came up with was their evil zero-tolerance policy in an effort to take children

Was it true when the Obama administration did the same thing? Remember, the “Flores” decisions are a series spanning administrations, which progressively narrow what the government can and cannot do. “Flores vs. Lynch” was in response to the Obama administration putting adults and children together; something it had not done before. The Ninth Circuit then said the government couldn’t put minors and adults in the same facility.

And how is that worse than subjecting the children to 2000 mile trips where they get molested on the way? Undoubtedly some die on the way due to conditions. The government of the U.S. needs to deter that by all means necessary.

 

[Metis1]

But refugees are supposed to go to the NEAREST country … which is Belize. Or Mexico.

If Capitalism is evil, and Socialism is good, then that would be the world’s wealthiest oil country, Venezuela.

That simply is not true as there is no such provision that’s required by international law, and what has happened in Europe with refugees coming out of Syria and northern Africa that scattered through various countries. We saw some of them in Italy where my wife is from.

And why in the world would you bring up socialism v capitalism as that has nothing to do with this topic? What this tells me is that you very much are into stereotyping people because there’s no other rationale for this that I can see. What are you going to do next, bring up the abortion issue? climate change?

BTW, just for the record, I’m “pro-life”-- sorry if I doesn’t fit into your stereotype of me too well.