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JapaneseKappa
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I don’t know how Trump’s people can look at that kind of language and not have an “Are we the baddies?” moment.
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PetraG
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Why? Because liking his policies automatically implies giving him a pass on cheap shot nicknames?What is the point of this post? It is not news and IMHO just another bash Trump attempt.
Why on earth would anybody assume that?
Honestly, I think the First Lady would be quite pleased if her husband would quit using this tactic. It is a very bad example and it really undermines her anti-bullying campaign, which I believe to be genuine on her part.
Melania Trump is obviously his biggest supporter, so supporting the President and wishing that he would quit with the name-calling and personal attacks have no necessary relationship. Do I blame her for not calling him out in public? No. Nobody ought to get a pass on defending behavior that deserves no defense, but a spouse ought to have the option of refusing to criticize their spouse in public. I could have lived with Hillary Clinton refusing to comment on Bill’s misbehavior. Defending it and attacking those who called him on it? No, that’s an offense against the truth, sorry. When Mrs Trump defends indefensible behavior, whether in Trump or in anyone else, that’s not OK, either. Loyalty never requires saying things that aren’t the truth.
I think it was out of place for the President to attack Greta Thornburg personally, but I do think that making snide remarks about Barron Trump or any other family member of who are in the political arena themselves is a different level of low. Ivanka Trump works in the White House; Barron does not. He has no choice and has attacked no one and no one’s policies himself.
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Perhaps because actions speak louder than words.I don’t know how Trump’s people can look at that kind of language and not have an “Are we the baddies?” moment.
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PetraG
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Name-calling and bullying are actions. Lowering the level of public discourse is an action.Perhaps because actions speak louder than words.
Popularizing rude behavior is an action. Undermining trust in the truthfulness of others while reserving the right to brazenly falsify statements oneself is an action.
These are all actions, and they all have consequences. Let’s not pretend otherwise. These things don’t become OK because someone who is accomplishing good things in other ways does them. Morality doesn’t issue mulligans like that.
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Let’s not pretend he has not been good for the pro life movement.Let’s not pretend otherwise.
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phil3
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Here is the problem with modern Catholicism, you have to vote progressive to be a good catholic.
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PetraG
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That’s the topic of a different thread, isn’t it? Well, unless we’re going to say that accomplishing good things relieves one of the duty to avoid vices in other areas.Let’s not pretend he has not been good for the pro life movement.
His habit of making rude comments and personal attacks is, objectively speaking, a vice in a Christian.
We as Christians just do not excuse bad behavior on the strength of other accomplishments.
If anything, we expect those who are models in their accomplishments to also at least try to be models in the way they conduct themselves personally, right?
Can it be fairly said that he’s not the only one who both identifies as a Christian in politics and yet indulges in rude attacks that are inconsistent with the Christian life? Yes, it can. Nobody ought to get a pass. It is not OK to call the President rude names just because he does it to other people. That is no excuse. “They do it, too” doesn’t fly with Mom or Grandma or elementary school teachers because that is not how mature persons decide how they’re going to allow themselves to behave.
Does anybody here think that Donald Trump couldn’t be successful if he weren’t rude? I don’t. I think he gets away with it because he’s successful, because he has had a position of authority all of his adult life. That fault does not need to get credit for his accomplishments. Lots of people are successful without a habit of sophomoric public taunting. I’d say, actually, that most successful people do not do any such thing. He shouldn’t get a pass, then. There is no excuse for it.
Here is the problem with modern politics: You are expected to give unconditional approval to everything your representatives in government do if you want to be considered a loyal supporter.Here is the problem with modern Catholicism, you have to vote progressive to be a good catholic.
That really needs to stop, and I don’t just mean on the Trump front. The willingness to criticize an action or a habit shouldn’t be the price of support for someone in politics. That is too much. It just guarantees a low level of respect in public discourse, which is very corrosive. How are we supposed to work together to find the best way to be a nation, if we don’t treat our opponents with more respect than that? How can we expect people to work with us in areas where we agree, if we do that?
Yes, I mean all the dismissive names aimed at the President are just as wrong as the dismissive names that he aims at others. It is understandable, it is hard to feel sorry for him when he is so free with that kind of attack, but that doesn’t make it right. Statesmen in particular, though, which is to say those who have the trust of elected office, the ones who represent who we are as a nation, should especially not indulge in that kind of “trash talk.”
The President said when he was running for office that he would be “more presidential” once he was elected. This is an area in which he needs to keep that promise. I don’t expect him to do it overnight, since it is an ingrained habit, but he needs to work on it.
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It’s the reason he has my vote.That’s the topic of a different thread, isn’t it?
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PetraG
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It isn’t necessary to pretend someone can do no wrong in order to give them your vote, though.It’s the reason he has my vote.
If his supporters quit tolerating this kind of thing and openly criticized him for it or said he was a worse President because he let himself do it, he’d stop doing it. As it is, he doesn’t get called on it so he keeps it up for those who lap it up. That’s a no-lose proposition for him.
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I haven’t.It isn’t necessary to pretend someone can do no wrong in order to give them your vote, though.
But your implication tells much.
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PetraG
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Oh, you haven’t pretended he can do no wrong? Funny, but I missed the post in this thread where you said his name-calling habit is wrong. That is the topic of this particular thread.I haven’t.
But your implication tells much.
In a thread about his nickname habit, I posted that namecalling and popularizing rude behavior and so on “are all actions, and they all have consequences. Let’s not pretend otherwise. These things don’t become OK because someone who is accomplishing good things in other ways does them”
You answered with: “Let’s not pretend he has not been good for the pro life movement.”
Someone else posted "I don’t know how Trump’s people can look at that kind of language and not have an “Are we the baddies?” moment.
You answered with “Perhaps because actions speak louder than words.”
The thread is about his name-calling habit.
Are you excusing it? Is it OK with you or is it wrong?
It is not as if you’ve ever posted anything but approval of the President in a thread about his name-calling habit. My implication tells much? Does it really? Or did I only read the exact implication you were trying to make?
Explain what you did mean by those posts, if you didn’t mean to disagree with the contention that accomplishments don’t excuse other bad behavior. You haven’t been clear at all that there is anything wrong the President has done that you find to be without an excuse.
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No. I haven’t.Oh, you haven’t pretended he can do no wrong?
And unless you can dig up some proof otherwise, you should retract your uncharitable accusations.
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phil3
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Who is pretending he can do no wrong? Not me that for sure.It isn’t necessary to pretend someone can do no wrong in order to give them your vote, though.
If his supporters quit tolerating this kind of thing and openly criticized him for it or said he was a worse President because he let himself do it, he’d stop doing it. As it is, he doesn’t get called on it so he keeps it up for those who lap it up. That’s a no-lose proposition for him.
As for his name calling, I just dont care about it.
That I do not parrot your position is no indication of my own.My evidence is that your repeated answer to posts that indicate he has done wrong have been…
Now kindly retract you very uncharitable accusations towards me.
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phil3
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What part of “I dont care” are you failing to understand?Why not? You don’t think there is anything wrong with it? Really?
Would you let your kids talk about other people that way? Would you sit still and let other people talk to your family that way? Why is it OK with you that he talks like that?
I look at all the things he has done right to get this country back on track.
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PetraG
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Nothing. What attacks he makes on other people and whether those attacks are either just or charitable is nothing to you. He does what you want in other ways, so he has carte blanche.What part of “I dont care” are you failing to understand?
I look at all the things he has done right to get this country back on track.
Does anyone actually think this way?He does what you want in other ways, so he has carte blanche.
I don’t think I have met anyone that has that attitude.
I believe this to be an exaggeration.
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PetraG
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You’d never guess it when instead of saying “yes, I think that is wrong but” the answer is just “…oh but”Does anyone actually think this way?
I don’t think I have met anyone that has that attitude.
I believe this to be an exaggeration.
I don’t know where the allergy to coming out and saying “it is wrong when he does that” is, but so it is. You’d think some of his supporters were going to swell up and break out in hives if they ever admit he’s done something, you know, W-R-O-N-G.
Not everybody, but there are those. It is as remarkable as the President’s own seeming allergy to making such an admission. I don’t think I’ve ever heard him express a regret except when it was a back-handed way of blaming a situation on someone else. It’s kind of remarkable, really.
No, no, it isn’t just his supporters who do it. It’s a disease that pops up in modern politics. I guess people vote against specific faults instead of voting on the whole situation, all things being considered, and so it is dangerous to admit committing a fault?
Maybe it comes from the same place that leads people to go into job interviews, be asked to name their faults, and their tactic is to find a way to mention one of their strengths, instead? Dunno.
Everybody has faults. Therefore, everybody in politics has their faults. This shouldn’t be a news flash or anything.
I’m beating this to death because I think this fault of the President’s, which he shares with too many in politics, is actually substantial and damaging. It is not harmless and it is not the way politics ought to be conducted by any candidate, but especially not a candidate with a strong Christian backing. I really wish he’d stop it. I really wish the objections from his supporters were far more strenuous, because he listens to the approval of no one in the world but theirs.
(Are some of the new Democrats worse? Oh, heavens, yes. Some of the things they let themselves say are as coarse as 40 grit sandpaper. Some go beyond nasty to just plain uncivilized.)
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phil3
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I dont…is actually substantial and damaging.
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meltzerboy2
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American statesmen? Sorry, I’m not familiar with the term; I believe it is archaic. I think the label went out of style quite a bit before Trump.