Trump calls out Biden on religion

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I think it is very helpful, to show these people precisely what you think abortion is, to engage them as to why they don’t see it that way, to explain why we do see it that way, why we are compelled by our conscience (there’s that word again!) to try to prevent it, and to get them to acknowledge that our concern is not without merit.
If you really think you should do this, the you should understand why people with differing opinions think they should be allowed to show you precisely what preventing abortion looks like and ask you why you do not see the absurdity of it, why they ignore your efforts to prevent abortion and to get you to acknowledge that their position has merit.

All you have to do is answer “the how?” Will you imprison all women of childbearing age? That is about the only effective way to prevent abortion. It certainly is more effective than anything I have heard you suggest.
 
Personal note to @HomeschoolDad:
Whilst I have a differing point of view on the current topic (regarding method, not outcome) I always appreciate your civility and willingness to engage in thought experiments.
Thank you. I have found, in online discussion and elsewhere, that some people become extremely uncomfortable with thought experiments and hypotheticals, possibly because they can’t understand them (their critical thinking faculties don’t go that far), or else it pushes them into having to think in a way that threatens what they want to think — pushes them outside their experience, and that rubs some people the wrong way. (Full disclosure — that’s pure Saul Alinsky, “Wherever possible go outside of the experience of the enemy”.) More sophisticated thinkers will cry “straw man!”.
 
If you really think you should do this, the you should understand why people with differing opinions think they should be allowed to show you precisely what preventing abortion looks like and ask you why you do not see the absurdity of it, why they ignore your efforts to prevent abortion and to get you to acknowledge that their position has merit.
I’m so relieved someone gets what I’m saying. You can imprison a woman to prevent an abortion, or you can 1) help her in her specific situation and change her heart towards Christ so she doesn’t see abortion as a possibility (and, are we not in the end trying to bring people to Christ?); or 2) prevent the situation altogether. But what you and I are saying takes FAR more personal investment than feverishly typing on the interwebs or doing typical prolife activities like marches once a year.
 
A nation goes as her laws go. Make abortion illegal and abortions may still occur, however, our nation then values all life. This is the standard that will help heal our nation.
 
If you really think you should do this, the you should understand why people with differing opinions think they should be allowed to show you precisely what preventing abortion looks like and ask you why you do not see the absurdity of it, why they ignore your efforts to prevent abortion and to get you to acknowledge that their position has merit.
I’d be happy to let them explain themselves, as long as they are willing to see it from my point of view as well. Do pro-choice people ever say “looking at it from the pro-life point of view, I kind of get it, I kind of understand why they oppose it”? I have my doubts that they ever admit this to themselves. (Would that force them to question their beliefs? Does that go somewhere they don’t want to go? Maybe something about the natural law telling people that murder is wrong? Maybe that “aboriginal vicar of Christ” making itself manifest?)
All you have to do is answer “the how?” Will you imprison all women of childbearing age?
No, no moreso than I would ban guns because a very few people use them to shoot other people, nor for that matter, would I ban automobile purchases because a very few people use cars to run down pedestrians. Nor because more than a few people drive drunk. But by the same token, I would make it illegal for people to shoot other people, to commit vehicular homicide, or to drive while intoxicated.
 
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I find your post extremely offensive, vicious, and accusatory.
Whoa, whoa, WHOA! The post was none of those. There was no namecalling, sarcasm (we see a lot of that these days from some), etc. Disagreement does not equal viciousness.

I’ve always disliked the argument of “you’re not X, you wouldn’t understand!,” where X is “black ,” “a woman,” “poor,” whatever. Saying that a man can’t speak on abortion is no different than saying a rich person can’t comment on poverty or a person from X country can’t comment on what’s happening in Y country.
 
But what you and I are saying takes FAR more personal investment than feverishly typing on the interwebs or doing typical prolife activities like marches once a year
If anything, Lenore, this comment is what’s offensive - as if marching for the pro-life cause doesn’t require a “personal investment.”

As I’ve often said, there are some who think you’re not “really pro-life” till you burn down an abortion clinic.

I can be pro-life in a million ways. There was a website years ago, “Imnotsorry” or some such (now long gone), where all sorts of really sad/angry/hateful women would post how wonderful abortion was. I used to go there and reply to a lot of them. Sheesh, talk about putting your head in the lion’s mouth! Maybe it did nothing - but we never see the good we do, and who knows, maybe someone saw something I wrote and reevaluated their position. Maybe you’d dismiss that as just me “feverishly typing on the web,” but really, what you’re doing when you write that is saying, “I do more than you do…and you should do more!,” and it’s not appropriate or constructive in any way (in part because to some “more” is never “enough”).
 
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How? How do you tell this to a young girl who was raped? To a woman in poverty subject to abuse? Do you not understand how terrifying it is to be responsible for the life of another–and please know, because men can and do walk away that it is always the woman’s burden? (Not that a child is a burden, but trying to care for one alone can be a burden). I am incredibly blessed to have an amazing husband who shares parenting with me equally, but that isn’t always the case and since we’re taken an unborn child it is moot because only the woman has the sole responsibility–a man can always walk away and knowing that, as a woman, is terrifying.

Can you–I implore you–put yourself in the position of a woman pregnant. If she is poor, how do you propose she afford diapers when she walks out the hospital doors? (They just…let you go, send you on your way…my husband and I were like…um, now what?! And we had each other as support). If this young, poor woman has a job, where is the baby to go when she’s working? Will YOU watch the baby?

I said I wasn’t going to engage so I’ll just be done unless you can address the theoretical woman herself and help her in her specific circumstances. Can you really not understand that ‘telling’ someone not to do something, without thought to how to remove the obstacles, is actually doing more damage? Or it’s it just up to the woman to figure it out? You tell her abortion is murder but send her along without mitigating her poverty or abuse, who cares that she’s twelve, it’s murder! Don’t ask me what she should do…just don’t get an abortion!

Your approach lacks all of the charity of Christ.
 
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NevermoreLenore:
I find your post extremely offensive, vicious, and accusatory.
Whoa, whoa, WHOA! The post was none of those.
Being that I was the recipient, I believe I have a right to make that call. There were specific ‘you’ statements.
I’ve always disliked the argument of “you’re not X, you wouldn’t understand!,”
But it’s true. I don’t understand what it is like to be a man. To be black.
 
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How do you tell this to a young girl who was raped? To a woman in poverty subject to abuse? Do you not understand how terrifying it is to be responsible for the life of another–and please know, because men can and do walk away that it is always the woman’s burden?
Lenore, this comes perilously close to “abortion is OK under those circumstances.”

How do we talk to people in those cases? We can talk with charity; understanding; and kindness; but when the rubber hits the road, abortion is murder, and it’s got to be called what it is.
 
Maybe you’d dismiss that as just me “feverishly typing on the web,” but really, what you’re doing when you write that is saying, “I do more than you do…and you should do more! ,” and it’s not appropriate or constructive
Ah, it’s not about doing more and I am not a participant in prolife activism. So by default, you do more. What I am saying, if you want to make a real difference, get your hands dirty (proverbially speaking) and help a young woman who sees no other option than abortion. Do this once, and I promise what you learn will probably be more of a blessing to you than her.

And whilst there is time and energy involved in a march, it is nothing compared to helping a pregnant woman and the personal investment involved. You remain a step removed from the heart and grit of abortion when you are not directly seeing what a pregnant woman experiences and helping to overcome the obstacles she faces.
 
when the rubber hits the road, abortion is murder, and it’s got to be called what it is.
Okay. You told her. She gets it–it’s murder. She fully understands. Now what? HOW does she continue? Who pays the doctor visits? What if she’s thrown out of her home and has no money? Will YOU take her in? Or will you wash your hands of the situation because, after all, she knows it’s murder. It’s up to her to give birth and then figure out what to do…
 
Do you say this theologically speaking? My understanding is that God is not accountant and that God takes to situation and context into consideration when He gives His judgment? Isn’t so?

Even people are taking the context into consideration? If God takes this into account, shouldn’t the people consider it as well?
 
It’s a complicated question - the spectrum ranges from “do nothing” to “pay for, and provide, literally everything mom wants till the baby is 18, then pay for college and grad school too - for her, and her baby.”

Unfortunately I’m not exaggerating. I had a debate with one of the women on Imnotsorry where she literally wanted her entire life paid for in exchange for carrying a baby to term. It looked like what she (and others) wanted was essentially to be rescued from their own bad choices in life. I remember her screaming at me (since she wrote in caps!) “All I was ever offered was pampers and a place in a sheIter!” I had no answer for her, and, respectfully, I have little for you that you will deem satisfactory. Why not? Because at some level, if a woman has a baby instead of having an abortion, she’s going to have to do something to actually provide for the baby (outside of immediate adoption). Unfortunately, that’s called being a parent.
 
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It’s a shame people can’t understand the whole thing about teaching a man to fish.
 
Okay. You told her. She gets it–it’s murder. She fully understands. Now what? HOW does she continue? Who pays the doctor visits? What if she’s thrown out of her home and has no money? Will YOU take her in? Or will you wash your hands of the situation because, after all, she knows it’s murder. It’s up to her to give birth and then figure out what to do…
What is the root cause of having to seek an abortion?
 
Good question. I believe money is not the root cause in most cases. I believe it’s more “I don’t want the responsibility,” or “I don’t want to give up my carefree (and sex-filled) lifestyle.”
 
Woman is making full discernment - it may be sin to make abortion, but it may be sin to raise up child in poverty, it may be abhorrent sin against notion of motherhood to give birth a child and then give this child to other people. All these things are sins, at least against the love towards baby. So - discernment is about multiple sins and conscience is only judge and according to Aquinas:
For Aquinas, every conscience binds, even an erring one. This means that if there is something that you believe you cannot do (after having taken care to form your conscience as well as you can), even if the Church commands it, then you cannot do it without committing a sin. Likewise, if there is something you believe you must do, even if the Church forbids it, then you must do it or else commit a sin.
 
Do pro-choice people ever say “looking at it from the pro-life point of view, I kind of get it, I kind of understand why they oppose it”?
Yes, of course pro-choice people understand your position. I do not think here are many women who do not understand abortion is killing a child.

The question is whether you understand their position. You still have not said anything about how you would prevent abortion. You just offer an airy, insubstantial let’s make it illegal. As if something will happen.
 
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