Trump calls out Biden on religion

[HomeschoolDad]

Read the catechism sections on homosexuality or masturbation. Or for that matter many other sins such as suicide.

They contain a well-nuamced balance between stating the objective wrongness of the acts and a note of the many factors that suggest that a compassionate and sympathetic approach is required.

What IS Calvinistic is black-and-white thinking. Not about tge morality of n.act or acts but how best to approach sinners in various situations. A blanket condemnation of ‘all your fault’ is a short step away from ‘nobe of my problem’. Which is a very un-Christian attitude.

I am all in favor of taking into account subjective factors, and realizing that in many cases, “mortal sin” is no mortal sin at all. I am not nearly the black-and-white thinker, I might come across as on these forums sometimes. There is objective morality, and then again there is the weakness, mental confusion, fear, shame, possible psychological imbalance, poor catechesis, brainwashing by the larger secular society, and all of the other things that make up the welter of “why we do what we do”.

However, just speaking for myself, it’s not so much the sin I’m concerned about, nor with its gravity. It is the killing of the unborn child. Even if it were subjectively no sin at all, or the slightest of venial sins (for the mother, that is — it’s quite a bit more difficult to absolve the doctor, doctors typically don’t abort babies in a fit of fear, confusion, and desperation), that child would be just as dead. Subjective lack of guilt for the sin doesn’t bring the child back.

 

[Freddy]

Thats not really an unrealistic view of the world. It’s an uncompromising view of the world but it doesn’t deny the world as it is.

If you think the world operates in such a way so that young people don’t use contraception and they don’t have sex when they shouldn’t and they don’t get pregnant when everything is stacked against them then we definitely have to agree to disagree.

 

[Dovekin]

“Let’s make it illegal”? How to prevent it? Oh… prison terms for doctors.

Thanks for answering! So far, we have several suggestions, some not serious, on how to implement abortion prevention:

1. It is a statement of principle.
2. Imprison:
   a. doctors who perform abortions
   b. All women
   c. Women who have procured abortions
3. Incentivize birth by supporting child to college age.
4. ? I think there was another.

#1 is probably the most effective, but masks show how iffy government endorsed principles are.

Prison doesn’t really seem effective to me. Will threat really deter anyone? Doctors probably would be just as discouraged by denial of privileges or credentials (like disbarred, but medical)

#3 is ineffective in your eyes. It is impractical, nobody wants to assume a burden equal to what is asked of the mother.

None of these sound like effective abortion prevention to me. I can’t see a good reason to implement any of these, so why fight to make abortion illegal? Will it really prevent abortion?

 

[JSRG]

‘Then she shouldn’t have had sex!’ Were you ever a teenager? When your brain is a few years from being fully formed and your hormone drenched body thinks of nothing but sex?

I was a teenager. I managed just fine without sex.

 

[Freddy]

I was a teenager. I managed just fine without sex.

Well done.

I guess from that small survey we can say that it’s possible to do without it. Not that anyone suggested that you couldn’t. But thanks anyway.

 

[Hume]

I was a teenager. I managed just fine without sex.

Good for you both.

According to the CDC, the “virgin survival rate” in America after 20 is about 12-14%.

So let’s laud your decision to abstain from sex in youth!

But let’s also consider other 86-88% and proliferate ways to minimize the unintended risks of sexual intercourse.

 

[Freddy]

Free love? The sixties just called. They wanted their slogan back.

I don’t know anybody who ‘teaches free love’. Certainly nobody who has a daughter! But I know a few people who understand how the world works. And despite our best intentions, bad things happen to good people. Quite often because of decisions made when not in a position to make sound judgement.

And despite some posters claiming to have been able to reduce temptation (and again, well done), it’s a realistic certainty that not everyone will be able to do that. And if contraception is absolutely forbidden and hence never discussed as an option to young people then unwanted pregnancies will happen.

So stopping them is, to all intents, impossible. How we reduce the number of consequent abortions is what we need to address.

 

[Freddy]

Parents don’t, society does. If you pretend not to believe that that is on you, but we all know it.

The education system encourages it, the WHO just released guidelines on teaching kids to experiment, teen magazines talk about it, etc.

Our culture is drowning in sex, so no wonder you think it’s impossible.
[/quote]

Nobody is denying that sex between unmarried people is quite normal. But I did state that the problem is associated with a lack of understanding of contraception. This is the crux of the problem for Catholics. You know people are going to have sex - you just pointed that out in the above post, and you don’t want women to have abortions. But you don’t want anyone using methods to prevent them getting pregnant in the first place.

 

[Hume]

As a side note, this old canard has been flown by most every generation since roughly the dawn of human history. “Kids these days…”

 

[AlNg]

If abortions are made illegal the punishment should fall squarely on the person who asks for the procedure and consents to it being done, the woman.

I agree. If you contract out to kill someone, you have to bear responsibility for the murder. And IMHO, murder is a pretty serious sin. I don’t see where a fine of $5 would be a sufficient punishment for murdering an innocent person. A starving man got 25 years to life in prison for stealing a slice of pizza in the USA…

Plenty are unduly pressured, tricked or manipulated, if not actually forced, either into having sex in the first place, into pregnancy, or into abortion.

That is why they deserve help and sympathy rather than blanket condemnation.

Well, this man was hungry and starving to death in the USA. How come he does not deserve help, but is condemned to 25 years to life in prison for stealing a slice of pizza? When you contract out to murder an innocent person, isn’t that a whole lot worse than stealing a slice of pizza when you are starving to death? If in America you get 25 years to life in prison for stealing a slice of pizza, then it should be the same or even more if possible for contracting to murder an unborn child, No?

 

[LilyM]

farronwolf:

If abortions are made illegal the punishment should fall squarely on the person who asks for the procedure and consents to it being done, the woman.

I agree. If you contract out to kill someone, you have to bear responsibility for the murder. And IMHO, murder is a pretty serious sin. I don’t see where a fine of $5 would be a sufficient punishment for murdering an innocent person. A starving man got 25 years to life in prison for stealing a slice of pizza in the USA…

Plenty are unduly pressured, tricked or manipulated, if not actually forced, either into having sex in the first place, into pregnancy, or into abortion.

That is why they deserve help and sympathy rather than blanket condemnation.

Well, this man was hungry and starving to death in the USA. How come he does not deserve help, but is condemned to 25 years to life in prison for stealing a slice of pizza? When you contract out to murder an innocent person, isn’t that a whole lot worse than stealing a slice of pizza when you are starving to death? If in America you get 25 years to life in prison for stealing a slice of pizza, then it should be the same or even more if possible for contracting to murder an unborn child, No?

That is a product of America’s unique (among modern Wdstern democracies) and frankly ridiculous three-strike laws. I am noot American by the way, so I have no involvement in those.

Never heard of any other 21st century democracy doing anything so ludicrous as sentencing a person to 25-years-to-life for something trivial, no matter how horrendous their history. Punishment should fit the crime, that clearly does not.

It is a very recent and freakish development even for America. I don’t remember such laws being in existence before maybe the late 1990s?

 

[AlNg]

Punishment should fit the crime, that clearly does not.

That is your opinion, but clearly it was not the opinion of the prosecuting attorneys and the American courts and legal system. In another case, a man was sentenced to life in prison for stealing 4 cookies. In still another case, a man had to serve 36 years in prison for stealing fifty dollars and seventy five cents. He was originally sentenced to serve life without parole, but somehow he got pardoned.

Man who spent 36 years in prison for stealing $50 from a bakery is now set to be freed - ABC News

Now is it not much more serious to murder an innocent person than to steal four cookies or to steal a slice of pizza? Should not the punishment fit the horrific crime of contracting for the murder of an unborn child?

 

[LilyM]

LilyM:

Punishment should fit the crime, that clearly does not.

That is your opinion, but clearly it was not the opinion of the prosecuting attorneys and the American courts and legal system. In another case, a man was sentenced to life in prison for stealing 4 cookies. In still another case, a man had to serve 36 years in prison for stealing fifty dollars and seventy five cents. He was originally sentenced to serve life without parole, but somehow he got pardoned.
https://abcnews.go.com/US/man-spent-36-years-prison-stealing-50-bakery/story?id=65264675
Now is it not much more serious to murder an innocent person than to steal four cookies or to steal a slice of pizza? Should not the punishment fit the horrific crime of contracting for the murder of an unborn child?

And? America’s courts and legal system either don’t see an unborn as havinga right to life, or think that any such right doesn’t supersede the right to bodily autonomy of the mother.

Since you seem perfexrly happy to tolerate the blatant injustice of a life sentence for stealing a few biscuits or a slice if pizza, by the same.logic you really cannot complain about the blatant injustice of allowing mothers to kill their children, no?

 

[LilyM]

Innocent until proven guilty. If they committed a slew.of other crimes, let them be proven guilty of. tthose other crimes. No proof, no punishment.

 

[AlNg]

Since you seem perfexrly happy to tolerate the blatant injustice of a life sentence for stealing a few biscuits or a slice if pizza, by the same.logic you really cannot complain about the blatant injustice of allowing mothers to kill their children, no?

Non sequitur. The correct inference is that a human being is worth much more than a slice of pepperoni pizza. And since the punishment for stealing a slice of pepperoni pizza can be as high as life in prison, it is only fair that the punishment for contracting to murder an innocent human being, such as an unborn child, be at least as high.

 

[LilyM]

Oh get real, there is a difference between a child who did nothing wrong and a thief. I would rather a thief go to jail for life than a baby be murdered by the mother. People who defend abortion (which is exactly what you are doing) disgust me.

People who think someone who steals food worth a dollar at most should go to jail for 25 years, as you do, disgust me.

Where did I defend abortion? I absolutely think abortion is wrong and a sin.

I just don’t think criminalising it is going to help is all Criminalising drugs hasn’t stopped drug crime, neither did prohibition stop alcohol-related crime.

 

[LilyM]

They usually are proven guilty, which is why they can be convicted. However, sometimes injustice kicks in and you can’t charge them for everything.

There was a guy who my professor was on a case for. The cop found the body of the murdered person in the trunk. The other lawyer got the evidence removed because the murderer was the only black guy he pulled over. The murderer got released for free because the cop only pulled over one guy that day who happened to be black.
[/quote]

If the evidence was wrongly removed, then that decision is wide open to appeal. Unless it succeeds on appeal, innocent until proven guilty applies and we shouldn’t treat him as guilty of something that hasnt been properly proven against him. To do that is the real injustice.

 

[LilyM]

Defending abortion.
[/quote]

Complete bull

The only thing I am defending is the right for people not to be subject to a “solution” (namely criminalising abottion) that is incredibly unlikely to work.

I have never heard you calling for adultery to be criminalised, or artificial contraception, or heresy. By your logic you are thus defending all those things.

 

[LilyM]

Sorry? We are talking about 25 YEARS for stealing pizza or a few cookies Not for murder. There has been no suggestion that that poor pepple so imprisoned were also murderers.

And unless we can legally prove them guilty, why should we subject them to legal punishment such as imprisonment? Or to a punishment so put ofnproprtion to what they were proven guilty of?

 

[Freddy]

To do that you have to convince people that it is practically undesirable. Not just morally so. So that those who don’t hold to the same morals as you do see that it might be a bad idea. That would include me.

Now I generally did not take sex lightly. I thought it was an important part of a serious relationship (note the ‘generally’ there). And contraception just abour made certain that we weren’t ‘making babies’. So if you can’t convince me - a mature aged adult with children (and grandchildren) that sex is a bad thing outside marriage then you have no hope with anyone around 20 or so.

Give it your best shot.