Trump calls out Biden on religion

[LilyM]

Because sex is a biological.drive built into us for the survival of the species. An extremely powerful and important urge. And a great force for good when used properly.

Because well over 90% of the population is sexualily active whereas 90% do not rape.

Becauae media and society are not screaming at us (albeit wrongly) that murder of people once they are born, and rape, are fine, and are or should be allowed

Because the courts of most countries have not put forward a (albeit wrong) message that murder of the born and rape are rights.

Because, like marijuana, but unlike rape and moat forms.of murder. a majority rather than a minority of people simply DO NOT understand why some have the conviction that abortion is wrong, and certainly don’t and never will share that conviction. And criminalisation is not the same thing as education or understanding and agreement.

Comparing abortion to rape or other forms of murder really is like comparing apples and bananas.

 

[Freddy]

I guess you can leave it to the rest of us then. Thanks for your thoughts on this.

 

[HomeschoolDad]

HomeschoolDad:

“Let’s make it illegal”? How to prevent it? Oh… prison terms for doctors.

Thanks for answering! So far, we have several suggestions, some not serious, on how to implement abortion prevention:

There is actually a lot of sound internal logic to what you say in this post. As a teacher (albeit for a class of one, viz. my son), I would be very pleased with a student such as yourself. I try to be fair-minded. When I was a graduate teaching assistant in college, one of my tasks was to compose, proctor, and grade essay exams. I had two students, one a fire-breathing liberal nuclear freeze advocate (whose campus nickname was a sacrilegious rendering of the Holy Name, and I think he even signed his blue book that way), the other a rock-ribbed Reagan conservative along the lines of Alex Keaton on Family Ties. They both presented excellent essays setting forth their positions. I gave them both As.

It is a statement of principle.

We have a lot of laws that are statements of principle. Prostitution is the first thing that comes to mind. (Incidentally, if I am understanding my history correctly, it was never illegal as long as only men had the vote. Just saying.) There are several bordellos on the main drag near my home. You never hear of any arrests. They claim to be “massage parlors” but it is common knowledge “what goes on there”. One is especially notorious. Yet the police don’t say “boo” to them. But all this said, should they be illegal? It would be interesting to put it up to a vote, and then break the vote out by gender. (Not sure how you’d count “non-binary-gendered” people.)

 

[HomeschoolDad]

At this point, it might be helpful to ask what was done about abortion when it was illegal. I’m not sure how you would prosecute such a thing. Who’s going to know? Who’s going to tell? The penalties could be on the books, but how would you actually prosecute anyone? You see, abortion, at least in its earliest stages, is a form of murder that can be committed without anyone ever knowing, other than the woman, her doctor, and possibly people working in the doctor’s office and those who know the woman intimately (her man, her family, her friends whom she’s told she was pregnant, etc.). The body, at least in the first trimester, can be disposed of very easily (I’ll spare our readers the details). People walk the streets of many cities having murdered someone, yet there isn’t enough evidence to convict them, and possibly not enough to charge them. But do we say “murder shouldn’t be outlawed when it can be committed in such a manner as to leave no body, no evidence, no witnesses, and hypothetically, no proof that the person ever even existed”? I don’t think so.

As far as “incentivizing birth by supporting child to college age”, I think one thing’s getting lost here. Any woman, unless she has been raped or is in similar circumstances (underage and coerced by a more powerful male, etc.), makes a free-will choice — and you know how we, as Catholics, love that concept of free will! (Almighty God can have my free will right back, I don’t want it, it does nothing but cause problems) — to perform the act from which, no matter what kind of contraception (or even NFP) she’s using, could result in pregnancy. No birth control is foolproof. Even sterilization can go wrong. I have known of two cases, one a cousin of mine, where the woman thought she couldn’t get pregnant, didn’t even bother with birth control — and then, surprise, they found themselves “with a baby on the way”. Both chose life, both became outstanding mothers. I hate to say it, but if they’d chosen abortion, nobody would ever have been told. There may be other cases in my personal acquaintance of which I’m unaware, for that very reason. So, long story short, why should the taxpayer, or private charity, pay through the nose for a bad life choice that needn’t ever have occurred? These women are not forced to have sex. The men who get them pregnant are not forced to have sex. Are we not free agents who take on responsibility for our choices?

 

[HomeschoolDad]

Thank you for a shot of Catholicism 101 (indeed, Christianity 101) here!

I’m not sure I’d endorse each and every one of your comments in this thread, but this absolutely needed to be said! Otherwise we fall back on the concept of “those values all good men hold in common” — and that’s Freemasonry. (Our whole society is basically founded on concepts not inimical to, and in some cases positively influenced by, Freemasonry, so that should come as no surprise.)

Was Jim Crow right because (possibly) a majority of Southerners favored it? Lynching? (It drew awfully big crowds sometimes, with no one standing up and saying “No! This is wrong!”.)

 

[Dovekin]

We have a lot of laws that are statements of principle.

Indeed. That is why I mentioned masks. You can make all the regulations you want, some people won’t wear masks, for whatever reasons. Prostitution is a good example. Principles make some difference, but it will not “prevent abortions.”

At this point, it might be helpful to ask what was done about abortion when it was illegal. I’m not sure how you would prosecute such a thing.

A major problem. Making it illegal just drives it underground, ie unregulated, unsanitary, etc. Laws to limit abortion mostly just harass people involved.

As far as “incentivizing birth by supporting child to college age”, I think one thing’s getting lost here.

That was my point! If the state wants to prevent abortion, they should take responsibility for their action. The woman’s choice was apparently not to give birth, ie she was deprived of “responsible action.” (not that I think the choice was responsible) I do not think the state should get involved, but if they are going to, they should take responsibility for their actions. They should give at least as much support as they ask of the mother.

I oppose abortion. Nothing you say will convince me it is murder, because I already think that. But I do not think you can convince women to choose to give birth by telling them they cannot choose. That leaves some form of coercion to prevent abortion, which is usually ineffective.

 

[JimG]

When abotion was illegal, it was abortionists who were prosecuted. If abortion is made illegal, it will be abortionists who are prosecuted.

 

[HomeschoolDad]

HomeschoolDad:

We have a lot of laws that are statements of principle.

Indeed. That is why I mentioned masks. You can make all the regulations you want, some people won’t wear masks, for whatever reasons. Prostitution is a good example. Principles make some difference, but it will not “prevent abortions.”

I could fix the “don’t see the point of wearing a mask” very easily — $100 fine plus court costs, with a misdemeanor conviction on their record for life. Is it not true that people generally don’t exceed speed limits because they fear a ticket and their insurance going up, not because they are persuaded to drive safely “because it’s the right thing to do”?

I have to think that prostitution being illegal does discourage men from visiting them. What man wants his picture in the newspaper with a description of what he’s being charged with doing, has to face his family and friends, has to explain it to his significant other (assuming he has one), has to send his kids to school and have them bullied over what their dad did? Some employers let people go when they do something that sullies the reputation of the company. If it’s legal (as it is in many countries), no crime, no arrest, if the monger covers his tracks discreetly, nobody ever has to know.

But endangering public health, speeding, and visiting brothels is not murder, at least not immediately and proximately. Indeed, visiting brothels, in and of itself, does not threaten human life at all, unless you consider that a prostitute might get pregnant and have an abortion, something I really doubt practically any “john” spends time worrying about.

HomeschoolDad:

At this point, it might be helpful to ask what was done about abortion when it was illegal. I’m not sure how you would prosecute such a thing.

A major problem. Making it illegal just drives it underground, ie unregulated, unsanitary, etc. Laws to limit abortion mostly just harass people involved.

I’d be interested to see if laws against abortion in the past prevented any abortions from taking place. I’m willing to bet they did, though of course we don’t have any statistics on “women who wanted an abortion but didn’t have one because it was illegal”, nor on doctors who would have performed abortions if they had been legal, but weren’t able to. Surely the laws didn’t prevent all of them, nor would they now. But even if they prevented even a small number, that would be at least some babies saved. It would be worth it.

I’m not even going to entertain the concept of “if a mother is determined to murder her baby, then let’s at least regulate it and ensure it is safe”. I cannot go there, and I will not go there.

 

[HomeschoolDad]

The woman’s choice was apparently not to give birth, ie she was deprived of “responsible action.” (not that I think the choice was responsible) I do not think the state should get involved, but if they are going to, they should take responsibility for their actions. They should give at least as much support as they ask of the mother.

The woman always has the choice not to have sex. Having made that choice, she needs to realize that there is always the outside chance she can get pregnant. The best contraception in the world cannot ensure that it will never, ever happen.

When abotion was illegal, it was abortionists who were prosecuted. If abortion is made illegal, it will be abortionists who are prosecuted.

Again, what happened back then? How common was it to get convictions? What kind of trouble did the doctors get into? I’d like to know.

Let’s also not neglect that if abortion were illegal, there would be no way for clinics to operate openly, no way for doctors to be open about this being a part of their practice, no insurance coverage, and it would always be possible for the civil authorities to make it worth the while of ancillary medical personnel to “rat out” doctors who do this — make it a violation of labor laws for medical practices to retaliate against informers, provide job protection, possibly even make rewards available. We have anonymous tiplines for other crimes, why not abortion?

 

[HomeschoolDad]

As best as I can determine, this is the proposition that is being debated here:

There is a species of murder, that not everyone is agreed is murder, perpetrated against the most innocent members of society. Not everyone is agreed that they even are “members of society” — their humanity is routinely denied by many. It can be carried out secretly, the body can be totally disposed of in a way that it can never be found, and in many cases, only the murderer, and the person who delivers the victim over to the murderer, knows that this victim even exists. Many will tell you that there are even very compelling reasons sometimes, to get rid of these people. Seeing as this is always going to go on in society, in secret death chambers, this should not be made illegal, and there should be no penalty or punishment for people who do this, if it ever becomes known. And not only that, but seeing as it is just a reality of life in this world, we need to make sure that if it is going to be done, that it should be done safely, humanely, in a sanitary environment, and that the opportunity should be readily available to any person who is harboring such a victim, without regard to cost or circumstances.

Sounds like a scenario out of Breaking Bad to me. And you?

 

[ksb1020]

This will be the second presidential election I can vote in. I really think that I’m going to write in for the American Solidarity Party. Both candidates are morally reprehensible. I know that at this point, a vote for the ASP if more of a “protest vote”, but I believe if other Catholics would take the leap, and see that with the ASP we don’t have to compromise our beliefs, it could soon become a viable option. The only thing I fear is what will happen to practicing Catholics with 4 years of a Joe Biden presidency. I really fear the man is going to be used as a puppet by the radical dems, who at this point are thinly veiled Marxists. And we know from history what happens to believers when Marxists gain political power.

 

[HomeschoolDad]

This will be the second presidential election I can vote in. I really think that I’m going to write in for the American Solidarity Party. Both candidates are morally reprehensible. I know that at this point, a vote for the ASP if more of a “protest vote”, but I believe if other Catholics would take the leap, and see that with the ASP we don’t have to compromise our beliefs, it could soon become a viable option. The only thing I fear is what will happen to practicing Catholics with 4 years of a Joe Biden presidency. I really fear the man is going to be used as a puppet by the radical dems, who at this point are thinly veiled Marxists. And we know from history what happens to believers when Marxists gain political power.

I agree with every word you say, though I have been voting in presidential elections since 1980. But I do not want to have it on my “memory of myself” (I won’t say “conscience”, my “conscience” tells me that there are various actions, all of which can be morally and ethically defended) that what I did, helped in some small way for Biden to win. I do not “like” Trump, but I “dislike” him less than I dislike seeing two or three liberal Supreme Court Justices nominated and confirmed.

Just in case anyone’s curious, here’s how I voted in all presidential elections since 1980:

1980 - Reagan
1984 - Reagan
1988 - GHW Bush
1992 - GHW Bush
1996 - Dole
2000 - GW Bush
2004 - GW Bush
2008 - McCain
2012 - Gary Johnson (Libertarian)
2016 - Evan McMullin (Independent)

Didn’t want to vote for Trump in 2016, not too crazy about it now. There are many times in adult life, when we have to do something other than what we want to do. I lived in a state that was safe for Trump in 2016, so I felt no real obligation to vote for him. In 2020, I do. Things are just too much up-in-the-air.

 

[Jeanne_S]

Your fears re Joe Biden are well founded

 

[ksb1020]

The fear of radical leftists getting into power and the idea of more Supreme Court justices being appointed does keep nagging at my mind to vote for Trump. Although I wonder how realistic it is for something as monumental a judgement like Roe v. Wade, which has been supported by other rulings to be overturned. I don’t know. It’s sad to only be 24 and so pessimistic about the state of this country. I grew up splitting time between here and Pakistan (my father’s country). Given that I broke Pakistani law by converting to Christianity, America is the only home I have. My news feed is filled with cases of Christians being raped, killed, or forced to convert in the “old country”. Now I see the beginnings of anti-Christian discrimination in this country. Over there it’s Islamism. Over here it will be Marxism

 

[Dovekin]

Your fears re Joe Biden are NOT well founded. They are uncharitable accusations against a fellow Catholic.

 

[Jeanne_S]

Catholicism aside,there is plent about a JB presidency that should concern all of us

 

[Dovekin]

Guns are used routinely to shoot innocent children in their schools. Everybody knows this, but some like to use guns for other reasons. No one has found a legitimate way to identify who will do the shooting, so we should limit the number of guns available. The hobbies of a small number of people do not outweigh the value of the children who get shot.

This is a first draft, no where near as compelling as yours, but I do not really care about this issue. I care only about the children who get shot.

 

[Dovekin]

Women have been wonderfully made by God. When God creates a new human, a soul is planted within the hidden depths of a woman’s body to give new life. Women should always choose to cooperate with God when this happens, but sometimes they choose not to. This is a sad tragedy, but no one has the right to overrule the woman’s choice. It would violate her basic humanity to usurp the power God has given her. We must encourage women to make the right choice, not try to take the choice away from her. God did not take freedom away from Eve or Adam; nor do we have the authority to take freedom away from a pregnant woman.

 

[HomeschoolDad]

Women have been wonderfully made by God. When God creates a new human, a soul is planted within the hidden depths of a woman’s body to give new life. Women should always choose to cooperate with God when this happens, but sometimes they choose not to. This is a sad tragedy, but no one has the right to overrule the woman’s choice. It would violate her basic humanity to usurp the power God has given her. We must encourage women to make the right choice, not try to take the choice away from her. God did not take freedom away from Eve or Adam; nor do we have the authority to take freedom away from a pregnant woman.

Very eloquently put, but I cannot walk there with you. I stick with my analogy about the victim who can be murdered and disposed of with impunity. If someone’s humanity has to be violated, as you put it, I would find it far less disagreeable to violate the mother’s humanity, than the humanity of her unborn child. If I subdue and hog-tie someone who invades my home in the middle of the night, to keep him from getting away until the police get there, superficially I suppose I have “violated his humanity” or compromised his human dignity, but there’s not a court in this life or the next, that would have a problem with me doing that. They would have every problem in the world with what he was doing.

Do you have any kind of “drop-dead point” (no pun intended) at which you would override the woman’s right to choose? First trimester? Second trimester? Some point not married to the trimester scenario (which is basically a construct anyway)?

Guns are used routinely to shoot innocent children in their schools. Everybody knows this, but some like to use guns for other reasons. No one has found a legitimate way to identify who will do the shooting, so we should limit the number of guns available. The hobbies of a small number of people do not outweigh the value of the children who get shot.

This is a first draft, no where near as compelling as yours, but I do not really care about this issue. I care only about the children who get shot.

I know you say this is a first draft, but I’m not following your analogy in the least.

 

[Dovekin]

Do you have any kind of “drop-dead point” (no pun intended) at which you would override the woman’s right to choose? First trimester? Second trimester? Some point not married to the trimester scenario (which is basically a construct anyway)?

I suppose it would be when the child is independent, probably when he takes his first breath. If the mother is doing all the breathing for the two of them, she should be the one deciding for the two of them. Something like that I suppose.

I do not think a woman should ever choose abortion. I was hoping you would convince me that we have some authority that would justify preventing abortion. I have not heard anything along those lines.